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TULIP Redefined

psalms109:31

Active Member
Yes you were according to Ephesians 1:4."Even as he chose US"
Well, which is it? Were you chosen or not? Of course our election is in Christ, but it was down before the foundation of the world.

In short God hasn't revealed to me that I was chosen before the foundation of the world apart from Christ, but in Christ.

Ephesians 3

God’s Marvelous Plan for the Gentiles
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

Colossians 1:
Paul’s Labor for the Church
24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.

Colossians 2

1 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.
Spiritual Fullness in Christ
6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[Or the basic principles; also in verse 20] of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verse 13.] was put off when you were circumcised by[Or put off in the circumcision of] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[Some manuscripts us] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[Or them in him]

1 Peter 2

1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
The Living Stone and a Chosen People
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[Or into a temple of the Spirit] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”[Isaiah 28:16]

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[Psalm 118:22]

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[Isaiah 8:14]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

I wouldn't be anything, His word is making me a new creation. They way I see it they were destined for the message, but was cut out not able to enter for unbelief not obeying the message.

Romans 11:20
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
 
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jbh28

Active Member
Yes you were according to Ephesians 1:4."Even as he chose US"

In short God hasn't revealed to me that I was chosen before the foundation of the world apart from Christ, but in Christ.
Yes, God has chosen you in Christ. I just said that. But you individually have been chosen.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, I am DEFINITELY NOT a calvinist. Just ask Luke, Rippon and some others. I "try" to be civil but every now and again my sarcasm will get the best of me. Again, Just ask Luke.

I am still "searching" for "what" I am, but am decidedly not in the ranks of the reformers.

Wow, you say that with such conviction!

In the long history of Christianity, there was what some Baptists claim as landmark, there is Catholicism (with all it iterations), there is Reformation with all its iterations & then there is this "Free Will" Belief (of course that has iterations IE Libertarian Free Will & Arminisiam -with its doctrines). Forgive me if Ive missed anyone but Quantum, where do you think you fall?
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Yes, God has chosen you in Christ. I just said that. But you individually have been chosen.

I am not worthy no one is, you was chosen in Christ never was anyone apart from Him. Apart from Him you are nothing, you can never be anything until you are in Him. You was chosen in Christ, the whole body is chosen anyone that is not in Him will face condemnation.

I trust in Jesus can never be anything without Him.
 

jbh28

Active Member
I am not worthy no one is, you was chosen in Christ never was anyone apart from He. Apart from Him you are nothing, you can never be anything until you are in Him. You was chosen in Christ, the whole body is chosen anyone that is apart from Him will face condemnation.

I trust in Jesus can never be anything without Him.

Yep. Which is why I believe in unconditional election. My election was because of him, not something seen in me.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
You seem to be one of the more civil people on this board. I can only assume you're not a full blown Calvinist because otherwise you would be crass and attacking other members. Sadly it seems you can recognize a Calvinist on here by their tone quicker then you can their doctrine.

I agree with the guy who said, "the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic. I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case. Some of this type aren't even Christians, I think. You can embrace a system of theology and not even be born again."
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
BTW Mets

There are MANY calvinists who are quite civil, even some on this board. I personally know many and count them not only as brothers, but also as friends. Friends who I worship with, and even enjoy the Super Bowl, (although I prefer Hurling) complete with a cold adult beverage.
I second that! In fact my best friend is Reformed and we have civil banters about this all the time. We love and respect each other. That is obviously a bit more difficult to do on an online forum.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Yep. Which is why I believe in unconditional election. My election was because of him, not something seen in me.

The word of Jesus puts a condition that men deny. The condition is to trust believe in Him and be saved, then you are apart of Him or continue down the path you are on by yourself to destruction.

The veil will remain until we turn to Christ and then will it be removed, no matter how men want to twist the scriptures.
 

jbh28

Active Member
The word of Jesus puts a condition that men deny. The condition is to trust believe in Him and be saved, then you are apart of Him or continue down the path you are on by yourself to destruction.

The veil will remain until we turn to Christ and then will it be removed, no matter how men want to twist the scriptures.

Salvation isn't unconditional. Faith is required for salvation. Don't confuse election(that took place before the foundation of the world) and your conversion which took place during your life.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree with the guy who said, "the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic. I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case. Some of this type aren't even Christians, I think. You can embrace a system of theology and not even be born again."

Hmmm, thats funny since I believe it appeals to those attempting to put biblical principals together in a systematic theology....a people who have enough presence of mind & humility of heart to put God 1st .... to worship a most Sovereign God instead of having sinners contributing to their own salvation (believing it is God's work from beginning to end).
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Salvation isn't unconditional. Faith is required for salvation. Don't confuse election(that took place before the foundation of the world) and your conversion which took place during your life.

The salvation is in Christ and it is He that was chosen before the foundation of the world. He is the one we are saved by since He was the one chosen and when we remain in Him He will remain in us. If we disown Him He will disown us.

People who was His was cut out for unbelief, and you think it was individual chosen to be in Christ that is not what it is saying. We were chosen in Christ plain and simple.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Hmmm, thats funny since I believe it appeals to those attempting to put biblical principals together in a systematic theology....a people who have enough presence of mind & humility of heart to put God 1st .... to worship a most Sovereign God instead of having sinners contributing to their own salvation (believing it is God's work from beginning to end).

That quote is from John Piper so you can take it up with him, but it appears to me you have made his case with this post because in it you seem to imply that we (non-Cals) don't use biblical principals or systematic theology, that we don't have presence of mind or humility of heart to put God first, that we are not really worshipping a Sovereign God and that we think we save ourselves. I can't understand why Piper would think this kind of thing about some Calvinists.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That quote is from John Piper so you can take it up with him, but it appears to me you have made his case with this post because in it you seem to imply that we (non-Cals) don't use biblical principals or systematic theology, that we don't have presence of mind or humility of heart to put God first, that we are not really worshipping a Sovereign God and that we think we save ourselves. I can't understand why Piper would think this kind of thing about some Calvinists.

I know who said it & glad he took time off ....he apparently needs the time off.

Regarding my statement....I stand by it because it is what I believe & both have seen & experience. People of Sovereign Grace have both humility & great Joy in confessing God's sovereignty.

Deal with it!
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
People of Sovereign Grace have both humility & great Joy in confessing God's sovereignty.

I agree. I know and worship with many of them. I was one of them for a decade and had the opportunity to study, worship and pray with many reformed brethren that I would consider to be very Godly and Christlike in their demeanor and tone, but I wasn't talking about them. I (and I think Piper) were talking about those who show a bit different tone when discussing doctrine.

You know, something like...

Deal with it!
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree. I know and worship with many of them. I was one of them for a decade and had the opportunity to study, worship and pray with many reformed brethren that I would consider to be very Godly and Christlike in their demeanor and tone, but I wasn't talking about them. I (and I think Piper) were talking about those who show a bit different tone when discussing doctrine.

You know, something like...

And I kinda feel the same way about anyone who puts
critiquingcalvinism

on all his posts in nice bold letters. LOL! so deal with it ROFL :smilewinkgrin:
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
And I kinda feel the same way about anyone who puts
critiquingcalvinism

on all his posts in nice bold letters. LOL! so deal with it ROFL :smilewinkgrin:
Oh, yes, that incendiary term "critique" is so rude and offensive. Really?

It's the name of my blog, which if you visit it you will see is very cordial to everyone.

I don't see this conversation going anywhere good, so let's call it a day. God bless you.
 

jbh28

Active Member
The salvation is in Christ and it is He that was chosen before the foundation of the world.
Both were chosen. We were the ones that is being spoken of in Ephesians as being chosen. "Even as he chose US" Christ isn't being chosen there.
He is the one we are saved by since He was the one chosen and when we remain in Him He will remain in us. If we disown Him He will disown us.

People who was His was cut out for unbelief, and you think it was individual chosen to be in Christ that is not what it is saying. We were chosen in Christ plain and simple.
Salvation isn't lost We were chosen in Christ, not Christ chosen in the Ephesians passage.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Wether or not you wish to accept this of not....that

www.critiquingcalvinism.blogspot.com provokes anger. What are you told to do by Scripture to anything that makes a fellow brother slip & fall? Just a note of caution & blessings.

Let's address this.

A Calvinists, who believes all things (including my being a non-Calvinist and writing a blog about that belief) are ordained/decreed by the God they love and serve is provoked to anger by a blog that cordially and respectfully critiques their system of belief?

And you believe that this could somehow make a fellow brother slip and fall? Really? That is something God didn't decree too?

Why caution me against something God has decreed me to do? :)
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Both were chosen. We were the ones that is being spoken of in Ephesians as being chosen. "Even as he chose US" Christ isn't being chosen there.
Salvation isn't lost We were chosen in Christ, not Christ chosen in the Ephesians passage.

As in believers his audience he was talking to in Christ already believers. I will not put myself in the position you have placed yourself. I was chosen before the foundation because He was. I am in Him because I believed in Him. He said He will save believers. Outside of Christ I was not chosen
 
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