Show me a verse that says man is born a sinner.
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Show me a verse that says man is born a sinner.
Show me a verse that says man is born a sinner.
Dozens of verses have been shown to you- you do not care about what the Bible says on this matter.
You only care about what ANYTHING says which tries to undermine the doctrines of grace.
Why don't you respond to post 16?
Nice non-answers, now how about showing a verse that says we are born sinners.
You are the king of nonanswers- or at least of not related answers.
Respond to post 16.
Show me a verse that says we are born innocent.
Boo-yah!
__
Now he will disappear to think about the matter....
Show me a verse that says we are born innocent.
OK,
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, THAT GOD HATH MADE MAN UPRIGHT; but they have sought out many inventions.
This shows God makes men good, but they turn to sin afterward.
OK,
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, THAT GOD HATH MADE MAN UPRIGHT; but they have sought out many inventions.
This shows God makes men good, but they turn to sin afterward.
You did not respond to the post.
This verse, like many in Ecclesiastes, cannot be used to build doctrine.
****Insults removed by moderator****
The verse, even in this book which no doctrine can fully rest upon, is referring to the first man. God did make Adam upright. Ever since man has been seeking out many inventions.
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Nice non-answers, now how about showing a verse that says we are born sinners.
19for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
When you deny this....you deny the gospel
also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
Romans 5:19 (Common English Bible)
19 Many people were made righteous through the obedience of one person, just as many people were made sinners through the disobedience of one person.
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convicted1
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Show me a verse that says we are born innocent.
Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Now, Bro Luke1616, I will ask you the question that I have asked many, and many have not answered it. How can you slay a "dead" thing??
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Now pay close attention to verse 25. Apostle Paul said "ye were sheep going astray. Now, you DoG Brethern state that His sheep know His voice(and they do), so apparently you went astray at some point in your life. If you are His sheep then you had to have belonged to Him at one point, or how could you go astray, being born dead(sinners seperated from God @ birth). You can't go astray unless you belonged to Him at an earlier time in your life.
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Is this the emergent church crap?
Probably not directly but there has been an emerging church for the past 100+ years which has given birth to all kinds of heresies.
It is this church with no nameable theology.
It has no historical roots.
It bears no historical or theological accountability.
In this church are Pentecostals- which have NO historical roots and NO theology-, most non-denominational churches, most Independent Baptist Churches and others.
They are emerging from historical Christian Orthodoxy.
I already knew you believed all of this stuff, Winman. It is certainly not that me, and Calvin and the greatest theological mind the world has ever known- Augustine, could not distinguish between body, soul and spirit.
But it is nice to see that you are consistently arrogant in thinking that you CAN distinguish what hundreds, yea thousands of BRILLIANT theologians on both sides of the theological spectrum could not.
Consistently arrogant in every post and too blind to even KNOW your arrogance.
Now to the matter:
Souls go to be with God immediately after death.
Now these souls of these babies which are completely untouched by sin in your horrifically false view- where are they now- the billions who have already died- where are their souls right now?
In Heaven occupying the VAST majority of the population there.
Now how did those SOULS get there?
Not by the blood of Christ, Winman- NO NO. Not according to your weird new view.
Christ's blood was shed for SIN. These babies souls have no sin according to your view.
They got there WITHOUT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!!
Babies are not untouced by sin, the sin of Adam brought death on all creation. Babies die, but so do animals. Do animals sin? Do animals inherit a sin nature from Adam?
When Jesus shed his blood on the cross it paid for sin and the effect of sin, death.
convicted1
Guest
If men are not born sinners, as some declare, then they do not need the blood of Christ which is shed for... well... sinners.
Assuming that all babies and small children and all invalids who die go to heaven, which I do, then the VAST VAST majority of the population of heaven is occupied by them. Perhaps as much as 90-99 percent.
This is based on the idea that more children die each year than adults and all of them go to heaven whereas MOST adults, apparently do not.
Now these people go to heaven not because of the CROSS. No, no. The cross is for SINNERS. They go to heaven because they are not guilty. They LITERALLY BY-PASS the CROSS.
Take the high number for anecdotal purposes. This means that it is perfectly possible that 99% of the human population of Heaven knows
NOTHING of redemption, NOTHING of the blood of Christ- 99% cannot sing the song of the Redeemed!
Such are the blasphemous conclusions of any doctrine that denies that men are born sinners, guilty before God, in need of a Savior!!!
Bro Luke,
I do not deny "Original Sin" in the least, but Augustine's definition of it, I do. Look, Saint Augustine was probably a very good man, who probably worshipped His maker the best he knew how, but he was still a fallible man.
Anybody can create a defintion of anything, even redefine it if they choose to, but that does not guarantee that this defintion is correct. If Augustine gave the definition of a dog as this-"An animal that purrs when you pet it, who loves to play with and eat mice, etc"- Am I to accept his definition of this as the Absolute truth?? Anything I believe, I use the bible as my final authority, and not someone's definition that I find lacking.
Babies are under the grace of God until they come to know right from wrong. In this grace, is the Blood of Christ. If they die in infancy, they have the Blood to take them home. The Blood of Christ is necessary for anyone to get through the portal of glory, period!! I hope I have cleared this up.
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Now, Bro Luke1616, I will ask you the question that I have asked many, and many have not answered it. How can you slay a "dead" thing??
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Now pay close attention to verse 25. Apostle Paul said "ye were sheep going astray. Now, you DoG Brethern state that His sheep know His voice(and they do), so apparently you went astray at some point in your life. If you are His sheep then you had to have belonged to Him at one point, or how could you go astray, being born dead(sinners seperated from God @ birth). You can't go astray unless you belonged to Him at an earlier time in your life.
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Willis this passage in Romans is not referring to literal spiritual life that Paul possessed before he was saved.
It is simply referring to Paul's thinking. He thought everything was ok until the LAW came alive in his mind and then he died.
The law made sin appear to him for what it really is. He had no idea how wicked he was until the law came alive unto him. Then he could SEE it.
He clarifies this in the same text:
I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
It was still SIN that he had. But the law came that sin MIGHT APPEAR SIN.
He was sinning the whole time. He was a sinner the whole time. But the LAW came that he might SEE his sin for what it is.
No reputable commentary in the history of the Christian Church, I venture, supports your interpretation of that passage. Why? Because it is wrong- it is not accurate. The context and the language does not allow for it.
Bro Luke,
I do not deny "Original Sin" in the least, but Augustine's definition of it, I do. Look, Saint Augustine was probably a very good man, who probably worshipped His maker the best he knew how, but he was still a fallible man.
Anybody can create a defintion of anything, even redefine it if they choose to, but that does not guarantee that this defintion is correct. If Augustine gave the definition of a dog as this-"An animal that purrs when you pet it, who loves to play with and eat mice, etc"- Am I to accept his definition of this as the Absolute truth?? Anything I believe, I use the bible as my final authority, and not someone's definition that I find lacking.
Babies are under the grace of God until they come to know right from wrong. In this grace, is the Blood of Christ. If they die in infancy, they have the Blood to take them home. The Blood of Christ is necessary for anyone to get through the portal of glory, period!! I hope I have cleared this up.
i am I AM's!!
Willis
What are you talking about Willis? Nobody has said a WORD about Augustine.
This is the Word of God we are talking about and what the Church has considered orthodox theology for NEARLY TWO THOUSAND YEARS.
The Word of God is clear: we are all sinners.
But I will tell you what I have not seen you have the grit to deal with.
If babies souls are without sin and babies are not sinners then WHY do the need the blood of Christ for those SOULS to get into heaven where billions of them are right now?
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Babies are not untouced by sin, the sin of Adam brought death on all creation. Babies die, but so do animals. Do animals sin? Do animals inherit a sin nature from Adam?
When Jesus shed his blood on the cross it paid for sin and the effect of sin, death.
SOULS, Winman. Their souls are sinful? I know how you wiggle around a this doctrine concerning their physical bodies. But their bodies which you and Willis admit are stained or infected or affected by sin die and go to the ground. But their SOULS go to God. They are there in Heaven right now.
How did those souls get there? And if by the grace and blood of Christ- why did they need grace and blood to get their SOULS there?
And you STILL didn't answer MOST of post 16. You are avoiding the questions and most of the arguments in that post. I venture on purpose.
See Luke, that is the problem, every time you run across a verse that contradicts your doctrine (of which there are hundreds), you simply explain it away.Willis this passage in Romans is not referring to literal spiritual life that Paul possessed before he was saved.
It is simply referring to Paul's thinking. He thought everything was ok until the LAW came alive in his mind and then he died.
The law made sin appear to him for what it really is. He had no idea how wicked he was until the law came alive unto him. Then he could SEE it.
He clarifies this in the same text:
I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
It was still SIN that he had. But the law came that sin MIGHT APPEAR SIN.
He was sinning the whole time. He was a sinner the whole time. But the LAW came that he might SEE his sin for what it is.
No reputable commentary in the history of the Christian Church, I venture, supports your interpretation of that passage. Why? Because it is wrong- it is not accurate. The context and the language does not allow for it.
Paul knew what he was saying, and he was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And Paul said he was ALIVE once without the law, but when the law came, sin revived and he died. Paul certainly wasn't living before Moses, so the only reasonable explanation is that he was speaking of when he was a child and was not mature enough to understand the law.
See Luke, that is the problem, every time you run across a verse that contradicts your doctrine (of which there are hundreds), you simply explain it away.
Paul knew what he was saying, and he was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And Paul said he was ALIVE once without the law, but when the law came, sin revived and he died. Paul certainly wasn't living before Moses, so the only reasonable explanation is that he was speaking of when he was a child and was not mature enough to understand the law.
I showed you how Paul explains with his OWN words what he means when he said "alive". You don't care what Paul says.
He said, "sin... that it might appear sin..."
Did you see that first "sin"? It is there. It is real. He was a sinner with sin as the first "sin" in that phrase clearly shows. But the law came that sin which he definitely had, MIGHT APPEAR SIN.
I showed you how Paul explains with his OWN words what he means when he said "alive". You don't care what Paul says.
He said, "sin... that it might appear sin..."
Did you see that first "sin"? It is there. It is real. He was a sinner with sin as the first "sin" in that phrase clearly shows. But the law came that sin which he definitely had, MIGHT APPEAR SIN.
No way Luke. Look, I have seen you guys claim Paul was a Calvinist. No way any Calvinist is going to say he was alive before regeneration. And we know he wasn't because he said he died.
I do not deny that we are born with a propensity to sin, that is obvious. But I do have a problem with calling it a sin nature, because the scriptures say Jesus's flesh was exactly like ours and he was tempted in all points as we are.
The scriptures say that anyone who denies Jesus came in the flesh is an anti-Christ.
Now I believe Jesus's flesh was EXACTLY like ours. His soul and spirit were not as we are created, where he is eternal.
So, if we are born with sin, then Jesus had to be born with sin as well.
This obvious problem is exactly why the Catholics invented the ridiculous doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
So, I ask you, was Jesus's flesh exactly like ours or not?
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