Origin of Sin, Part Deux

[Luke2427]

These are the second and third definitions of the ones given for fate.
The universal principle or agency (God) by which the order of things is prescribed....
This is the way that you describe your theology. Look at the rest: "the decreed cause of events. Fate decreed that they would never meet again. However, in this example it is God decreed... Thus fate remains fate. Everything is decreed beforehand. Substitute God for fate. Substitute God for agency. The definition fits.

You have rightly said that God is love, personal, answers prayer, etc. But you have not defined him as such when you define God as being borderline fatalistic, or attribute all things to him both good and evil. How is God personal to you if all things are ordained or decreed from the beginning.

Would it not make better sense to say that God is totally sovereign. He knows the end from the beginning. Time is no issue with God. In the realm of God's omnipotence or power God has given free will to man without compromising either his power or his omniscience. He is still sovereign. He still has rule and control over the world, but in that sovereignty allows or permits evil to take its place, to continue. He does not decree evil, but allows it. Thus he is not the author of evil, he merely allows it. Man has the free will to choose to do evil. God is still sovereign, but in God's sovereign will he allows man to make his own choices and be responsible to God.

1fate
noun \ˈfāt\
Definition of FATE
1
: the will or principle or determining cause by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do : destiny

 

[DHK]

1fate
noun \ˈfāt\
Definition of FATE
1
: the will or principle or determining cause by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do : destiny

I agree with the definition Luke.
But if the principle or determining cause is God himself, then the definition fits, does it not?

 

[DHK]

From Josh McDowell's "A Handbook of Today's Religions," we find this quote concerning Islam:

Finally there is a sixth article of faith which is considered by many to belong to the five doctrines. Whether this is one of the articles or not, it is a central teaching of Islam--the belief in God's decrees or Kismet, the doctrine of fate. This is a very rigid view of predestination that states all good or evil proceeds from divine will.
This strong fatalism has played a central role in Muslim culture. "To this the lethargy and lack of progress which, until recently at least, has for centuries characterized Muslim countries, can be partially attributed" (Anderson, op. cit., p.82). From this concept comes the most common Islamic phrase, roughly translated, “It is Allah's will.”

 

[Luke2427]

From Josh McDowell's "A Handbook of Today's Religions," we find this quote concerning Islam:

I am going to break my rule for this one post.

Even a cursory glance of English and American history and even a brief Google search of the phrase "Protestant Work Ethic" would be plenty to differentiate the doctrine of predestination from the Muslim Determinism of which you speak concerning the distinct effects of the two on their respective cultures.

The DoG carved out the United States and the Protestant Work Ethic which flows directly from the DoG has been the primary pillar of progress in European history.

Any one who has any decent historical education beyond high school can see that quite easily.

 

[Amy.G]

Between Satan and mankind, there is an abundance of evil in this world. God does not need to "cause" evil. He has plenty to work with already. He uses the evil of man to bring about His purposes but He does not cause man to sin.


The verse I posted has everything to do with your doctrine Luke.

You say God causes people to sin. Jesus said anyone who causes someone to sin should have a millstone hung around their neck and be thrown into the sea. Clearly Jesus is saying that to cause someone to sin IS sin. Therefore according to your doctrine you have God committing sin by causing someone to sin.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

Quote from DHK

Would it not make better sense to say that God is totally sovereign. He knows the end from the beginning. Time is no issue with God. In the realm of God's omnipotence or power God has given free will to man without compromising either his power or his omniscience. He is still sovereign. He still has rule and control over the world, but in that sovereignty allows or permits evil to take its place, to continue. He does not decree evil, but allows it. Thus he is not the author of evil, he merely allows it. Man has the free will to choose to do evil. God is still sovereign, but in God's sovereign will he allows man to make his own choices and be responsible to God

.


Friend,
Bro. Luke has made a tremendous case for the exhaustive Sovereignty of God in not just allowing evil, but "disposing the state of events" for it's existence.

Your system seems, in a "human" understanding, to at first glance be acceptable, but what is acceptable as opposed to what is True can sometimes be totally at odds.
Therefore, to just dismiss all the scripture offered by Luke; while simultaneously offering an opposite possibility with no scriptural evidence, is unfortunate.

 

[DHK]

I am going to break my rule for this one post.

Even a cursory glance of English and American history and even a brief Google search of the phrase "Protestant Work Ethic" would be plenty to differentiate the doctrine of predestination from the Muslim Determinism of which you speak concerning the distinct effects of the two on their respective cultures.

The DoG carved out the United States and the Protestant Work Ethic which flows directly from the DoG has been the primary pillar of progress in European history.

Any one who has any decent historical education beyond high school can see that quite easily.

It doesn't matter about the differences in culture, work ethic, or even church history for that matter.

What is important to see is that here is a religion where fatalism is a basic tenet of their religion, along with a strong belief in their God. God has determined all things. There is a strong belief in predestination, such a strong belief that it has become fatalism. The basic answer to all things is "It is God's will."

When landing in a Muslim nation once, the pilot asked all to put on their seat belts for we would be landing in about five minutes "insh'allha," which means "The Lord willing." Well I hope the Lord was willing that we were going to land!! I thought. And if we had crashed instead it would have been Allah's will (fatalism).

 

[Luke2427]

Between Satan and mankind, there is an abundance of evil in this world. God does not need to "cause" evil. He has plenty to work with already. He uses the evil of man to bring about His purposes but He does not cause man to sin.


The verse I posted has everything to do with your doctrine Luke.

You say God causes people to sin. Jesus said anyone who causes someone to sin should have a millstone hung around their neck and be thrown into the sea. Clearly Jesus is saying that to cause someone to sin IS sin. Therefore according to your doctrine you have God committing sin by causing someone to sin.

Find a post where I said God "causes people to sin".

Amy, if you would actually debate ME, it would be nice.

I said God willed that sin exist, that he is the ULTIMATE cause of all things, including the existence of evil, and that God decrees all things.

What you have failed to recognize while stubbornly painting only one side of my arguments so that you can make them appear to be something that they are not, or so that they can be something that you can debate since you are not able to debate my arguments as they actually stand, is that I have said repeatedly that man is perfectly free to do what he wants to do at all times and that man makes his own decisions totally free form compulsion.

What you have yet been able to grasp is that the way this universe functions according to the Word of God, which should be the final say for all of us, is that men do exactly what they want to do and that they also do what God wants them to do.

But they do it for evil- God does it for good.

That is the Word of God.

It is ABUNDANTLY clear.

 

[DHK]

.


Friend,
Bro. Luke has made a tremendous case for the exhaustive Sovereignty of God in not just allowing evil, but "disposing the state of events" for it's existence.

Your system seems, in a "human" understanding, to at first glance be acceptable, but what is acceptable as opposed to what is True can sometimes be totally at odds.
Therefore, to just dismiss all the scripture offered by Luke; while simultaneously offering an opposite possibility with no scriptural evidence, is unfortunate.

Your right I haven't offered any Scripture. That doesn't mean that there aren't any.

God leaves it up to man to choose.
Every verse concerning salvation is for man to choose.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
There are literal hundreds of such verses.

Concerning God's allowing evil (I have already been through these Scriptures before).
God permitted Satan to afflict Job with evil. It was not God afflicting Job, but Satan. God allowed Satan. Satan could do nothing to Job without God's permission.

God's ways are higher than our ways; his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Sometimes we don't understand why things happens the way they do, but it is wrong, if not sin, to attribute evil to a holy and righteous God. He is the author of good, not evil. Evil comes from a depraved heart.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

God created Lucifer in perfection, not in imperfection. Lucifer chose to lift up his heart in pride and rebellion against God. God allowed him to do it. God did not ordain it to be so. There is no Scripture for that.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)
--Five times does Lucifer say "I". I will ascend; I will sit; I will ascend; I will exalt; I will be like. I, I, I, I, I, The all refer to personal choices that Lucifer made in his rebellion against God, not God imposing evil in Lucifer, not God ordaining Lucifer to do evil.

There is much more Scripture. I think I could write a book on this but I don't have the time. I have given Scripture in the past. I don't feel the need to go through it all again.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

It doesn't matter about the differences in culture, work ethic, or even church history for that matter.

What is important to see is that here is a religion where fatalism is a basic tenet of their religion, along with a strong belief in their God. God has determined all things. There is a strong belief in predestination, such a strong belief that it has become fatalism. The basic answer to all things is "It is God's will."

When landing in a Muslim nation once, the pilot asked all to put on their seat belts for we would be landing in about five minutes "insh'allha," which means "The Lord willing." Well I hope the Lord was willing that we were going to land!! I thought. And if we had crashed instead it would have been Allah's will (fatalism).

13Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"— 14yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

 

[DHK]

13Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"— 14yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

Yes, that teaches that prayer is necessary before we make decisions. Don't leave God out of your life. And don't take Scripture out of context.

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (1 John 5:14)

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, that teaches that prayer is necessary before we make decisions. Don't leave God out of your life. And don't take Scripture out of context.

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (1 John 5:14)

That verse doesn't have a thing to do with prayer. James talks about prayer at the beginning of the chapter and does not talk about it again. Between verses 1-3 and the passage in view there are NUMEROUS independent thoughts that have nothing to do with prayer.

not judging one another
resisting the devil
humbling yourself before God
and more...

This passage has NOTHING at ALL to do with prayer. It has to do with the humility God demands of one so arrogant to presume that he will do as he wills on the morrow. NO! Do not presume you will do what you will tomorrow! You say, "I will do this only if God is willing. It is sin to boast that I will accomplish ANYTHING tomorrow. God is in charge of tomorrow and I must recognize my frailty and his Sovereignty and let my tongue do obeisance before Him and always say- 'IF HE WILLS..."

That is what that passage is about. It has nothing to do with praying.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

Yes, that teaches that prayer is necessary before we make decisions. Don't leave God out of your life. And don't take Scripture out of context.

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (1 John 5:14)

And don't take Scripture out of context.

No, you miss this. This is a separate thought independent of the first part of chapter 4. Several different thoughts are being dealt with since verses 1-3 deal with "wrong" praying.

James is saying you have no ideal about tomorrow, therefore 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that."

 

[convicted1]

These were posted by Bro. DHK:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)

Brother, I used this passage in another thread, and they didn't accept it. Why do you think they will in this thread??

God created Lucifer in perfection, not in imperfection. Lucifer chose to lift up his heart in pride and rebellion against God. God allowed him to do it. God did not ordain it to be so. There is no Scripture for that.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: You out there Bro. Quantumfaith?? LOL

--Five times does Lucifer say "I". I will ascend; I will sit; I will ascend; I will exalt; I will be like. I, I, I, I, I, The all refer to personal choices that Lucifer made in his rebellion against God, not God imposing evil in Lucifer, not God ordaining Lucifer to do evil.

It was Lucifer's pride, and that he wanted to be above the Most High!! Whenever you see too many "I"s, there is pride involved!!

Concerning God's allowing evil (I have already been through these Scriptures before).
God permitted Satan to afflict Job with evil. It was not God afflicting Job, but Satan. God allowed Satan. Satan could do nothing to Job without God's permission.

It was only when God "dropped the hedge" that Satan had access to Job. God permitted Satan to afflict Job. I agree with you completely!!

God leaves it up to man to choose.
Every verse concerning salvation is for man to choose.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
There are literal hundreds of such verses.

(((AMEN))) !!!!!!

Very good post, Brother, very good post, indeed!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[DHK]

This passage has NOTHING at ALL to do with prayer. It has to do with the humility God demands of one so arrogant to presume that he will do as he wills on the morrow. NO! Do not presume you will do what you will tomorrow! You say, "I will do this only if God is willing. It is sin to boast that I will accomplish ANYTHING tomorrow. God is in charge of tomorrow and I must recognize my frailty and his Sovereignty and let my tongue do obeisance before Him and always say- 'IF HE WILLS..."

That is what that passage is about. It has nothing to do with praying.

That is why I gave 1John 5:14. Compare Scripture with Scripture. How do we discern the will of God for our lives. We pray in order to discern his will. We read his Word and allow God to speak to us. Both are important. But most important, the Bible emphasizes prayer over all things when discerning the will of God.
"If the Lord will," How do I know? I must pray.
What is the other option? The only other option is to do what it says not to do, and that would be akin to a fatalistic approach.

 

[psalms109:31]

To ask in prayer for His will, what a blessing for us.

1 Peter 3: 8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For,

“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
11 They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[Psalm 34:12-16]

1 Thessalonians 5:
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

 

[Luke2427]

These were posted by Bro. DHK:



Brother, I used this passage in another thread, and they didn't accept it. Why do you think they will in this thread??

What is to accept, Brother Willis?

This verse does not do anything for Arminianism or this nameless theology that some espouse on baptistboard.

Evil was found in him. That does not tell us anything.

What the Word of God does CLEARLY tell us is:
Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

Proverbs 16:4 "God hath made all things for himself, yea, even the WICKED for the day of judgment."

Now that is clear.

A primary rule in hermeneutics is that you ALWAYS interpret the ambiguous in light of the clear.

The Word of God is clear and repeatedly so.
It is poor hermeneutics to take an ambiguous passage and create some new doctrine from it while ignoring the bulk of the Word of God, especially those clear passages that teach the opposite of what you try to make the unclear passages say.

It was only when God "dropped the hedge" that Satan had access to Job. God permitted Satan to afflict Job. I agree with you completely!!

It does not matter what you agree with, Willis. God's Word is clear that it was more than just permission. Permission is only part of it.

Job said, "The LORD hath taken away." The SCripture then testifies of this remark by Job, "In all this Job did not charge God foolishly."

That's Bible. It's very simple. It ought to be enough. Job did not say, "The Lord PERMITTED Satan to do this to me." To make it say that is to add to the Word of God, which is a dangerous thing. Job said, "The LORD hath taken away..."

Respectfully, you must abuse the Scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

The fact of the matter is this: Satan meant it for evil- God meant it for good.

 

[convicted1]

What is to accept, Brother Willis?

Evil was found in him. That does not tell us anything.

Bro Luke,

I think you are missing the key word in that very verse, found. Notice that it didn't say placed? Now if that verse stated that iniquity was placed in him, then you'd have a leg to stand on. But it was said that iniquity was found in him. There was no sin until iniquity was found in Luicfer. That is the point I was trying to make.

This verse does not do anything for Arminianism or this nameless theology that some espouse on baptistboard.

Brother, I know that you have mentioned this NUMEROUS times, and I am one of them that is included in this "blanket statement", but this is another topic altogether.

What the Word of God does CLEARLY tell us is:
Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’
Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

These verses do not enhance your position, because both sides will agree with this. How does God create calamity? Look at the USA now. We have turned our backs on Him, and He has removed His hand from us, and look at what is happening now!!! As long as we leaned on Him, we did just fine. Now that He has removed His hand from us, calamity abounds!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

Bro Luke,

I think you are missing the key word in that very verse, found. Notice that it didn't say placed? Now if that verse stated that iniquity was placed in him, then you'd have a leg to stand on. But it was said that iniquity was found in him. There was no sin until iniquity was found in Luicfer. That is the point I was trying to make.



Brother, I know that you have mentioned this NUMEROUS times, and I am one of them that is included in this "blanket statement", but this is another topic altogether.




These verses do not enhance your position, because both sides will agree with this. How does God create calamity? Look at the USA now. We have turned our backs on Him, and He has removed His hand from us, and look at what is happening now!!! As long as we leaned on Him, we did just fine. Now that He has removed His hand from us, calamity abounds!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Brother Willis, I know you do not know this, but it is poor hermeneutics to develop a doctrine from one word in a VERY ambiguous passage. The passage is clear on what it does teach, but it does not teach what you want it to teach.

And your illustration of the calamity God has created in the US is EXACTLY what the Reformed believe about how God has ordained that evil be.

God must simply remove his good hand and evil and calamity will come to pass. Evil is the absence of goodness just as cold is the absence of warmth.

Remove goodness and the result will be evil.

That is how Lucifer became evil. God removed from him His divine goodness and evil inevitably followed.

It is the only way that Adam could sin- God had to remove his goodness in order for Adam to be able to sin- and without God's goodness Adam was destined to fall.

Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

 

[DHK]

What is to accept, Brother Willis?

This verse does not do anything for Arminianism or this nameless theology that some espouse on baptistboard.

I am neither Calvinistic nor Arminian. I get my theology from the Bible as many others do. I dare say that no two men agree with each other on all things. Having said that let's look at the Scripture you gave.

What the Word of God does CLEARLY tell us is:
Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

1. There is no other God but Jehovah.
2. Speaking to Israel he tells them that he is the one that "equips" them.
3. He repeats that there is no other God but him.
4. He forms light and he forms darkness--a reference to creation.
5. He makes things well, and brings about calamity (natural disasters I would presume).
6. Yes, God does all these things. We all agree on these things. None of them attribute evil to God. None of them even hint that God would be the author of evil, or ordain or decree evil. Nothing in that verse comes remotely close to teaching that.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’

1. God declares all things from the beginning to the end--his omniscience.
2. His counsel shall stand. Of course: He is God. He is sovereign.
3. His purposes will be accomplished. How can it be otherwise?
There is nothing here to suggest that anything evil can be attributed to God; that God decrees evil; that God is the author of evil or ordains it.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

All of us agree that Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, which this verse teaches. So we have no argument here.

Proverbs 16:4 "God hath made all things for himself, yea, even the WICKED for the day of judgment."

Young's literal puts it this way:

All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4)
--Not so cut and dry now is it?

Perhaps the NET Bible puts it best.
The LORD works everything for its own ends
even the wicked for the day of disaster. (NET)

The wicked will indeed face a day of judgment (disaster for them), but why? Because they chose it. The wicked works for a day of evil, instead of choosing Christ. All his works are evil. Their end will certainly be evil, but the NT sheds more light on this truth then the OT gives us. One cannot isolate a verse of poetry like this without gaining truth from other parts of the Bible.

A primary rule in hermeneutics is that you ALWAYS interpret the ambiguous in light of the clear.

Quite correct. The clear are the truths presented in the NT.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
--That is what is clear.

The Word of God is clear and repeatedly so.
It is poor hermeneutics to take an ambiguous passage and create some new doctrine from it while ignoring the bulk of the Word of God, especially those clear passages that teach the opposite of what you try to make the unclear passages say.

Free will is taught over and over and over again.

It does not matter what you agree with, Willis. God's Word is clear that it was more than just permission. Permission is only part of it.

Job said, "The LORD hath taken away." The SCripture then testifies of this remark by Job, "In all this Job did not charge God foolishly."

I have answered this objection before.
These are the words of Job. Yes they are inspired, but they are Job's words, not God's words. There is a big difference.
God himself removed the hedge. God himself gave the permission; allowed Satan to afflict Job. Nothing could be done to Job without the express permission of God. Satan had to have permission from God. Job had no idea what was happening in heaven when he responded in this way. God gave Satan permission to afflict Job. This point must be conceded.

That's Bible. It's very simple. It ought to be enough. Job did not say, "The Lord PERMITTED Satan to do this to me." To make it say that is to add to the Word of God, which is a dangerous thing. Job said, "The LORD hath taken away..."

That is because Job did not know what was going on in heaven. So how could he say that. We also don't know what is happening in heaven right now. Job spoke as much as he knew, but it wasn't accurate. What was accurate was that God gave permission to Satan. The first chapter is very clear about that. That is what it teaches--God allowed Satan to afflict Job.

The fact of the matter is this: Satan meant it for evil- God meant it for good.

God allowed Satan to afflict Job, and yes he had a purpose in it, and knew that his faith, though it be tried as fire would be found to the praise and honor and glory to the Lord. It is the will of God that all Christians God. God does not ordain or decree evil to happen. He is not the author of it. But he allows it to happen.