Is Paul more loving than God?

[Ron Wood]

No, no, my sermons are typically about the perfection that is Ron Wood and how we should all strive to be more like him. :smilewinkgrin:

Then your sermons are very short. Folks must love it.

 

[Andy T.]

You know what is interesting regarding this statement... Relatively few asians are believers, statistically speaking, so could one rightly conclude that God may have some kind of bias against them? Just not sure how Calvinists handle that issue sense such things don't involve man's will, but only God's.

Skand, I gather from your posts that you are an educated man, but don't you see the plank in your own eye you when make these attacks on Calvinism (that have nothing to do with Scripture)? Your attack above could just as easily be turned around on Arminians - why are so few Asians (percentage-wise) Christian? Is it because White people are wiser and smarter than Asians?

Blah, Blah, Blah - we could go in circles on this.

I think you would be better served to keep your arguments against C based on the Scriptural evidence, and avoid these lines of arguments (which have been turned on your beliefs time and time again), because it becomes harder and harder for people to take you seriously.

The bottom line is Scripture - not your conjectures.

 

[canadyjd]

Uh, Apostle Paul is not a "fallen man" at this point in his life. Granted, his flesh was still under the curse of sin and death, but his soul had been made alive unto God through Christ. At this point in his life, he had access to God through Jesus such as we do now. So, in a sense, he wasn't "fallen"....

Paul says in I Tim. 1:15 that he is the foremost of all sinners. He doesn't say he used to be the foremost of all sinners. He says he is the foremost of all sinners.

Whatever the greatness of Paul's life as a Christian, he was a fallen man.

To question whether the love of Paul (or any other human being) is greater than the love of Almighty God (who is "Love"), is unseemly on it's face. It is unfair to Paul, and irreverent to God.

peace to youraying:

 

[Skandelon]

Skand, I gather from your posts that you are an educated man, but don't you see the plank in your own eye you when make these attacks on Calvinism (that have nothing to do with Scripture)? Your attack above could just as easily be turned around on Arminians - why are so few Asians (percentage-wise) Christian? Is it because White people are wiser and smarter than Asians?

Blah, Blah, Blah - we could go in circles on this.

Those of us who believe in free will don't have the same problems with this particular question. We actually believe that the choices people made throughout history to go to certain people groups affects the saturation of the area with the gospel. That is why we would say less Asians have come to faith. There is no circle in that argument.

I think you would be better served to keep your arguments against C based on the Scriptural evidence, and avoid these lines of arguments (which have been turned on your beliefs time and time again), because it becomes harder and harder for people to take you seriously.

Many of my passages are scripturally based, but this one was in response to a particular point regarding God not being a respecter of persons (a scripture passage). If God doesn't base his choice on anything regarding the man (like their race) it would seem to reason that their would be a more even distribution of believers among the different races. I know Calvinists don't claim to know WHY God choose certain individuals over others but they seem certain it has nothing to do with the man, thus the purpose is somewhere in God, who clearly saw it within himself better that less Asians are saved. There is nothing wrong with speculating as to why that might be.

Also, it is a very real question to Asians who have lost family members and loved ones. This is the practical side of theology, but sometimes it is easier to stay inside the theoretical bubble of ones own dogma where all the pat answers work and no one dares to question its implications.

 

[Luke2427]

Do you really believe you love your daughter more than God does?

Actually your argument presumes that God only loves those who end up in heaven, when the scripture indicates his love for all mankind and his desire for all to come to repentance. The fact that he doesn't necessarily effectually cause people to love and follow Him doesn't mean he doesn't love them, it only means he has given them the freedom to choose their own way.

You assume that Scripture teaches that God loves all men in the sense that he wants to save them all. This is begging the question.

Scripture in context does not at all indicate that.

Do you suppose God ought to love the Devil?

 

[Andy T.]

Those of us who believe in free will don't have the same problems with this particular question. We actually believe that the choices people made throughout history to go to certain people groups affects the saturation of the area with the gospel. That is why we would say less Asians have come to faith. There is no circle in that argument.

Many of my passages are scripturally based, but this one was in response to a particular point regarding God not being a respecter of persons (a scripture passage). If God doesn't base his choice on anything regarding the man (like their race) it would seem to reason that their would be a more even distribution of believers among the different races. I know Calvinists don't claim to know WHY God choose certain individuals over others but they seem certain it has nothing to do with the man, thus the purpose is somewhere in God, who clearly saw it within himself better that less Asians are saved. There is nothing wrong with speculating as to why that might be.

Also, it is a very real question to Asians who have lost family members and loved ones. This is the practical side of theology, but sometimes it is easier to stay inside the theoretical bubble of ones own dogma where all the pat answers work and no one dares to question its implications.

No, Arminians don't escape the charge, no matter how much you protest that you do escape it. In Arminian theology, the bottom line hinge of salvation is based on man's response. If certain people groups haven't responded favorably to the Gospel (or the light that God gives beforehand re Romans 1 per Arminians), then it must be some inherent defect in that people group that has amounted to fewer Christians in that group.

Besides, your whole argument is silly to begin with - there are plenty of Asians who are Christians - in fact, millions. Have you heard about the growth of the church in China, for instance? You look at simple percentages, but that's just one way to slice the numbers so you can try to paint Calvinism in the worst possible light.

I am bored with your conjectures at this point. You do much better when you stick to Scriptural argumentation.

 

[Skandelon]

You assume that Scripture teaches that God loves all men in the sense that he wants to save them all. This is begging the question.

I made no such assumption. First, I asked if Paul's expression of love for the hardened Jews reveals that his love and willingness to sacrifice for their salvation is greater than God's in a Calvinistic system where God clearly "hates" the non-elect?

Secondly, I responded to Grasshoppers assertion that God's choice not to effectually prevent his daughter from going to hell must be reflective of his lack of love for her in comparison to his. I was addressing that presumption by showing that God's will is not to save all without exception, but to save all who believe. Thus, His expression of love for the world and desire for all to come to repentance is genuine even if he doesn't effectually cause it. (Even Calvinists such as John MacArthur affirm this point)

 

[Skandelon]

No, Arminians don't escape the charge, no matter how much you protest that you do escape it. In Arminian theology, the bottom line hinge of salvation is based on man's response.

Response to what Andy? The gospel, right?

The gospel is not as saturated in Asian nations as it is in others. "How will they believe if they have not heard?" That is my point, which you apparently missed.

 

[Andy T.]

Response to what Andy? The gospel, right?

The gospel is not as saturated in Asian nations as it is in others. "How will they believe if they have not heard?" That is my point, which you apparently missed.

I suppose we need to dig deeper here. Question: Why is it that for centuries and centuries, certain people groups were never brought the Gospel (i.e., the dark corners of Africa, Asia, etc)? The typical Arminian answer is that those people who respond to God's light favorably will be given more light, so that the Gospel will be brought to them. Is that your view? Or maybe more fundamentally, what do you believe happens to someone who never hears the Gospel? Are they accountable for their sins?

 

[Skandelon]

I suppose we need to dig deeper here. Question: Why is it that for centuries and centuries, certain people groups were never brought the Gospel (i.e., the dark corners of Africa, Asia, etc)?

Disobedience of believers who have clearly been directed to go into all the world and preach to every creature.

Or maybe more fundamentally, what do you believe happens to someone who never hears the Gospel? Are they accountable for their sins?

Yes, they are accountable for their sins and I believe the scripture indicates they are "without excuse" and will be held accountable to their level of revelation.

In John 14:6 Jesus declared, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Jesus' words make it clear that He alone has brought God's gift of salvation to the world. But do His words also mean that everyone who hasn't heard of Him will be condemned to hell?

Abraham lived long before Christ. When he told Isaac that God would provide a sacrifice, his words were strikingly prophetic, but he didn't understand their true significance. He knew nothing about the Lamb of God who would die on a cross nearly 2,000 years later. People like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Job, Melchizedek, Abraham, Sarah, and Jacob never heard the gospel, yet Hebrews 11:13 leaves no doubt that they will be in heaven.

No one in Old Testament times had a clear understanding of the role that Jesus Christ would someday play in atoning for sin. But centuries before the gospel was revealed, the faith of Old Testament believers was already "credited to them as righteousness" ( Genesis 15:6; Psalm 106:31; Galatians 3:6 ).

Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles asked:

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? (Romans 10:13-14).

But there isn't a passage of Scripture that definitively proves that God looks upon [those who have never heard the gospel] differently than He looked upon Old Testament believers who had only a faint idea of the nature of coming redemption. The apostle Paul may have had this issue in mind when he wrote the first chapters of Romans, declaring that God has revealed Himself in creation ( Romans 1:18-20 ) and in human conscience ( Romans 2:12-16 ). Paul said that each individual will be judged according to his response to these two revelations of God. To those who respond positively, God gives more knowledge—as He did to the Ethiopian eunuch and the Roman centurion, Cornelius (see Acts 8,10 ). Those who are lost will be judged according to their response to the spiritual light they have received ( Hebrews 4:12-13 ). 1

It may be that God will extend His grace to [those who have never heard but have expressed faith] on the basis of Christ's shed blood, just as He did to Enoch, Melchizedek, Job, Abraham, and Sarah—people who had only the faintest intimation of the means by which God would provide for their redemption. In the final analysis, we must leave this matter in God's keeping. He is both just and loving. We can be assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right ( Genesis 18:25 ).

1. Jesus made it clear that those who had little light will be punished lightly:

That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked ( Luke 12:47-48 ).

-Dan Vander Lugt

 

[webdog]

Do you really believe you love your daughter more than God does?

Actually, if God didn't predestine her to be "elect" and hates her as He does Esau by withholding love from her, wouldn't any parent of those who end up in hell love their child more than God?

 

[webdog]

Ha Ha Ha......Every time I read your posts I think of 1 Cor 2:14 " The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him..."

Shakes head.

You are saying Skan is a "natural man"?!? You do realize questioning the salvation of others is a violation, right...or don't you care?

 

[Skandelon]

You are saying Skan is a "natural man"?!? You do realize questioning the salvation of others is a violation, right...or don't you care?

Actually it is a very biblical thing to refer to other believers who can't understand some deep spiritual truths as "natural" or "carnally" minded. In fact, that is what Paul is actually doing in the context of the letter to Corinth that Calvinists like to pluck out of context. Cor 2:14 is in the context of Paul addressing "brethren" who clearly cannot receive the content either, so this is not about lost men's inability to receive the gospel, it is about even believers who are carnally minded not able to understand and accept the "the deep" spiritual things of God. (vs. 10)

 

[webdog]

Actually it is a very biblical thing to refer to other believers who can't understand some deep spiritual truths as "natural" or "carnally" minded. In fact, that is what Paul is actually doing in the context of the letter to Corinth that Calvinists like to pluck out of context. Cor 2:14 is in the context of Paul addressing "brethren" who clearly cannot receive the content either, so this is not about lost men's inability to receive the gospel, it is about even believers who are carnally minded not able to understand and accept the "the deep" spiritual things of God. (vs. 10)

Oh, I agree with that understanding completely...just ask Luke He'll be shocked to know I'm not the only human throughout history to state exactly what you just did (what he accused me of on a thread devoted to this particular passage a couple months back).

Earth, Wind and Fire sided with Luke, though, and both of their interpretations were the natural men spoken of in that text were lost. Knowing that I called EWF on the carpet for him using it in describing you.

 

[Skandelon]

Oh, I agree with that understanding completely...just ask Luke He'll be shocked to know I'm not the only human throughout history to state exactly what you just did (what he accused me of on a thread devoted to this particular passage a couple months back).

Earth, Wind and Fire sided with Luke, though, and both of their interpretations were the natural men spoken of in that text were lost. Knowing that I called EWF on the carpet for him using it in describing you.

It also brings the passage they always quote out of Romans 8 about the natural man not being able to please God into the light. If even brethren can be "carnal" or "natural" this passage can't be used as a proof text to mean that unbelievers can't believe because that would "please" God. If you have people who've already believed living carnal lives then they too "cannot please God" as long as they continue to live carnally. This has nothing to do with man's ability to live by the spirit once the spirit makes the appeal to be reconciled to God. :thumbsup:

 

[Andy T.]

Yes, they are accountable for their sins and I believe the scripture indicates they are "without excuse" and will be held accountable to their level of revelation.

Ok, per the quote you provided, it said, "those who respond positively, God gives more knowledge—as He did to the Ethiopian eunuch and the Roman centurion, Cornelius (see Acts 8,10 ). Those who are lost will be judged according to their response to the spiritual light they have received ( Hebrews 4:12-13 )."

Therefore, since so "few" (I wouldn't call millions few, but you do) Asians are Christian, we can only surmise that (a) some of them have heard the Gospel and rejected it, or (b) the rest of them have never heard the Gospel, because they have not "responded positively" to the light God has given them. Therefore, the same essential charge can be laid at your feet: There are fewer Christians in Asia because they are not as smart or wise as whites, since there are far more white Christians (as a percentage of their group) than Asians.

Again, I'm not the one making this argument, since it is all conjecture, but it's the game you tried to play in your OP, a game with which you have failed in your attempt to malign the beliefs of your brothers in Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

Ok, per the quote you provided, it said, "those who respond positively, God gives more knowledge—as He did to the Ethiopian eunuch and the Roman centurion, Cornelius (see Acts 8,10 ). Those who are lost will be judged according to their response to the spiritual light they have received ( Hebrews 4:12-13 )."

Therefore, since so "few" (I wouldn't call millions few, but you do) Asians are Christian, we can only surmise that (a) some of them have heard the Gospel and rejected it, or (b) the rest of them have never heard the Gospel, because they have not "responded positively" to the light God has given them. Therefore, the same essential charge can be laid at your feet: There are fewer Christians in Asia because they are not as smart or wise as whites, since there are far more white Christians (as a percentage of their group) than Asians.

You left out an option causing your inaccurate conclusion. (c) many [Asians] haven't heard the Gospel and therefore haven't had the opportunity to respond to its very powerful and persuasive truth.

Additionally, I'm not sure you worded option B correctly...I wouldn't say "the rest of them have not "responded positively" to the light God has given them" is the the REASON they haven't heard the gospel. The reason they haven't heard the gospel is because no one has preached it to them due to disobedience of the church. The reason God may judge them differently is because they will be held accountable for the level of revelation they have received.

 

[Andy T.]

You left out an option causing your inaccurate conclusion. (c) many [Asians] haven't heard the Gospel and therefore haven't had the opportunity to respond to its very powerful and persuasive truth.

Additionally, I'm not sure you worded option B correctly...I wouldn't say "the rest of them have not "responded positively" to the light God has given them" is the the REASON they haven't heard the gospel. The reason they haven't heard the gospel is because no one has preached it to them due to disobedience of the church. The reason God may judge them differently is because they will be held accountable for the level of revelation they have received.

But according to your quote, those who respond positively to God's revelation will receive more revelation. If they haven't received more revelation, then we can only conclude that they haven't responded positively to God's initial revelation - i.e., they aren't very smart.

Sorry, it still backfired on you. Again, I suggest you go back to Scripturally-based arguments and apologize for your attempt to unfairly malign the beliefs of your brothers in Christ.

 

[webdog]

If they haven't received more revelation, then we can only conclude that they haven't responded positively to God's initial revelation - i.e., they aren't very smart.

Actually Scripture says nothing of intelligence, but loving the darkness more than the light.

 

[Skandelon]

But according to your quote, those who respond positively to God's revelation will receive more revelation.

That doesn't necessarily mean the gospel. It just means with more faith in the light given that more will be understood and seen. For example, if I see and accept God's creative power in a sunset, I might later be able to see and accept his divine attribute of kindness in the way a mother hen instinctively protects here chicks. Nothing guarantees the gospel being preached accept that a messenger is sent, he obeys and goes and preaches it. Those are the means God has chosen.

BTW, you can leave out the frail attempts to rebuke me for my views, they presume my position is incorrect and disregard the very purpose for a soteriological debate forum, which is to debate differing views. Plus, it makes you come across in a negative light to those objectively searching for truth on this forum--which doesn't serve your purpose.