Daniel 8v13-14 and Luke 21v24

[TrevorL]

Jesus appears to be alluding to Daniel 8 when he says:
Luke 21:24 (KJV): "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Compare the similarity of the language:
Daniel 8:13 (KJV): "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

Daniel 8:14 (KJV): "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
One major fulfilment of the 2300 days could be from the major event in the vision of Daniel 8 the overthrow of the Ram by the He-Goat. "The Anchor Atlas of World History" states that Alexander defeated the Persians at Granicus in May BC 334, and at Issus in Nov BC 333. Add 2300 years to this and we arrive at 1967, the Six-Day War, when Jerusalem was once again brought under the control of the Jews.
The events of 1967 are an essential step to set the stage for further events prophesied, for example Zechariah 14, resulting in the complete cleansing of Jerusalem. The important vision of Isaiah 2 clearly depicts this outcome:
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): "1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
The power that God has over the elements, revealed recently in drought, fire, flood, storm and earthquake, and the shaking of the nations in the Middle East witness that the times of the Gentiles are drawing to conclusion. The political and religious rulers are antagonistic to the Jewish occupation of East Jerusalem and ignore the prophecy of Daniel 8 and the words of Jesus in Luke 21 and the testimony of the prophets.
Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is seated at the right hand of God the Father is soon to return and bring the times of refreshing and restitution of all things spoken by the prophets. He will replace the kingdoms of men with his righteous rule, when he sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem ruling over the house of Jacob and over the nations Psalm 8, Psalm 72, Jeremiah 3:17, Daniel 2:44, Matthew 5:34-35, Matthew 19:28, Luke 1:30-33.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): "19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dr. Walter]

Jesus appears to be alluding to Daniel 8 when he says:
Luke 21:24 (KJV): "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Compare the similarity of the language:
Daniel 8:13 (KJV): "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

Daniel 8:14 (KJV): "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Trevor,

First, glad to make your acquaintence and welcome to the forum. You probably already realize that familiar langauge is not sufficient to prove that two different texts found in two different books written by two different authors hundreds of years apart are speaking about the same thing.

Second, Daniel 8:11-13 is located within the third world kingdom - Greece and within one of the four divided kingdoms of Greece after the fall of Alexander the Great. In contrast, Luke 21:24 is located within the fourth world kingdom with the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Third, Daniel's vision is concerning the daily sacrifice and its removal until its restoration (Dan. 8:11-14) whereas Luke has reference to the "armies" that desolate Jerusalem (Lk. 21:20-24) until the end of Gentile rule.

Fourth, the "little horn" arises at the end of the Grecian period whereas Titus who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD came nearly 570 years after the Grecian period had ended.

Fifth, neither can Titus the Roman General who destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70 (Lk. 21:24) be regarded as the "little horn" of Daniel 7 because the "little horn" of Daniel 7 reigns until the second coming of Christ and Titus died within the first century.

Sixth, Luke 21:20-24 has to do with "armies" that destroy Jerusalem as well as scatter the Jews all over the world whereas Daniel 8:11-14 has nothing to do with destroying Jerusalem or scattering the Jews all over the world but rather with the time span between the removal of the daily offering (Daniel 8:11-13) by offering up what defiles sanctuary until the daily offering is restored through cleansing the sanctuary. This defilement, removal of the daily sacrifice and its cleansing and restoring is recorded in 1 Maccabees chapter one.

There are many other differences between Luke 21:20-24 and Daniel 8:11-14 but consider these for now.

 

[BobRyan]

"How long shall be the vision " --

It is a 2300 year timeline starting with the Ram (Medo Persia) in Dan 8:3 and going all the way to the end of the vision in Dan 8:12.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Dr. Walter,

First, glad to make your acquaintence and welcome to the forum. You probably already realize that familiar langauge is not sufficient to prove that two different texts found in two different books written by two different authors hundreds of years apart are speaking about the same thing.

I appreciate the welcome, and likewise pleased to make your acquaintance. I agree that similar language may not be sufficient, but the Matthew record states that Jesus is quoting from Daniel, and I suggest this refers to both Daniel 8 and 9:
Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV): "15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"
Luke 21:20-21 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."
Daniel 8:12 (KJV): And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV): "26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Second, Daniel 8:11-13 is located within the third world kingdom - Greece and within one of the four divided kingdoms of Greece after the fall of Alexander the Great. In contrast, Luke 21:24 is located within the fourth world kingdom with the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.

I believe that Daniel 8:11-12 speaks of the time of the first advent of the Lord, speaking of the crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

Third, Daniel's vision is concerning the daily sacrifice and its removal until its restoration (Dan. 8:11-14) whereas Luke has reference to the "armies" that desolate Jerusalem (Lk. 21:20-24) until the end of Gentile rule.

The Temple in Jerusalem will be restored at the end of Gentile rule as Isaiah 2, Ezekiel 40-48 and Zechariah 14 clearly show.

Fourth, the "little horn" arises at the end of the Grecian period whereas Titus who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD came nearly 570 years after the Grecian period had ended.

The Roman power in the east gradually arose out of one the four Grecian divisions. In "BC 133 Attulus III of Pergamon bequeathed his kingdom to the Romans; it became the Roman province of Asia in BC 129" Anchor Atlas of World History. Thus Rome did not conquer / supersede Greece in the same way as Medo-Persia conquered the city of Babylon, or Greece defeated the Persians in the battlefield. They arose out of one of the territories of the Grecians, and became a power in this region. The symbol of a horn arising out of one of the four is very fitting.

Fifth, neither can Titus the Roman General who destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70 (Lk. 21:24) be regarded as the "little horn" of Daniel 7 because the "little horn" of Daniel 7 reigns until the second coming of Christ and Titus died within the first century.

I do not equate the little horn of Daniel 7 with the little horn of Daniel 8. The little horn of Daniel 7 relates to a religious power that arose out of the one of the ten sub-divisions of the Roman empire in the west, many centuries after the rise of the little horn of Daniel 8 in the east.

Sixth, Luke 21:20-24 has to do with "armies" that destroy Jerusalem as well as scatter the Jews all over the world whereas Daniel 8:11-14 has nothing to do with destroying Jerusalem or scattering the Jews all over the world but rather with the time span between the removal of the daily offering (Daniel 8:11-13) by offering up what defiles sanctuary until the daily offering is restored through cleansing the sanctuary. This defilement, removal of the daily sacrifice and its cleansing and restoring is recorded in 1 Maccabees chapter one.

The events of Antiochus may tentatively, partially or typically fit the terms of Daniel 8, but the greater fulfilment is in the events surrounding Christ in his first and second advents.

The suggested 2300-year period from BC 334 to AD 1967 depicts the period of time that antagonistic powers, including Grecian and Roman, held sway over Judah and Jerusalem. Starting this time period at the overthrow of Persia is significant, because it not only fits the vision of Daniel 8, but they were prophetically and historically sympathetic to the return of the Jews from Babylon and tolerant of their worship in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dr. Walter]

Greetings Dr. Walter,
I appreciate the welcome, and likewise pleased to make your acquaintance. I agree that similar language may not be sufficient, but the Matthew record states that Jesus is quoting from Daniel, and I suggest this refers to both Daniel 8 and 9:

I agree that Daniel 9:26-27 and the Olivet Discourse are related to each other. However, I totally deny that Daniel 8:11-14 is related to the Olivet Discourse for many reasons.

1. The 2300 number has to do with the "daily offering" (Dan. 8:11-13) as the period between when it is removed (Dan. 8:11-12) and when it is restored (Dan. 8:13-14). The language used in Daniel 8:14,26 is not the same language used in Genesis 1 with reference to the evening and morning 24 hour day but refers to Exodus 29:38-39 and the evening and morning offering. The term translated "daily" in Daniel 8:11-13 is the same term used in Exodus 29:38 with refernence to the continuance of the evening and morning sacrifice.

2. Daniel 8:7-8 and 22-23 demand that the "little horn" which takes away the daily offering and thus defiles the sanctuary, arises "out of" the Grecian kingdom. Neither Titus or Rome came "out of" any aspect of the Grecian kingdom. The Roman kingdom advanced over territories bequeathed and conquerored but never rose up "out of" such!

3. Daniel 8:11-14 never speak of Jerusalem or the sancturary being destroyed but only defiled and in need of cleansing. The defilement was caused by removing the "daily offering" (Dan. 8:11-13) and offering up a pig (1 Maccabees). In Contrast "armies" actually destroy the temple and the city of Jerusalem in the Olivet discourse. They are not one and the same events.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Bob,

"How long shall be the vision " --

It is a 2300 year timeline starting with the Ram (Medo Persia) in Dan 8:3 and going all the way to the end of the vision in Dan 8:12.

in Christ,

Not sure what you had in mind, as the full scope of the vision starts with the Ram and ends with the second coming of Jesus, when the little Grecian horn is destroyed Daniel 8:25, 12:40-45. What power or individual do you identify as the end time king of the north? This has not yet happened, so where do you start and finish your timeline?

Timeline to fit the opening post suggestion:
BC 334 ----------------- 2300 years ----------------- 1967
Battle of Granicus------------------------------------- Six-day War
Antagonistic Gentile power invades Judah -----Jerusalem recaptured from Gentiles
| _______________________________________________|
I could add the start of the Ram, and the return of Jesus as additional markers, but had trouble enough with the graphics of the above.

In the following prophecy I equate the "bring again the captivity of Judah" as occurring in 1948 and that of Jerusalem in 1967. This process is the reverse of the prophecy of Luke 21:24. How do you read these verses?
Joel 3:1-2 (KJV):1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dr Walter,
I decided to briefly answer some aspects of your response in a general way without an accurate or complete answer while on line, but will be busy tomorrow and weekend and will add any further detail if I can find adequate information or reasons early next week.

I agree that Daniel 9:26-27 and the Olivet Discourse are related to each other. However, I totally deny that Daniel 8:11-14 is related to the Olivet Discourse for many reasons.

I believe that Daniel 9:26-27 is an expansion and explanation of some of the detail in Daniel 8.

1. The 2300 number has to do with the "daily offering" (Dan. 8:11-13) as the period between when it is removed (Dan. 8:11-12) and when it is restored (Dan. 8:13-14). The language used in Daniel 8:14,26 is not the same language used in Genesis 1 with reference to the evening and morning 24 hour day but refers to Exodus 29:38-39 and the evening and morning offering. The term translated "daily" in Daniel 8:11-13 is the same term used in Exodus 29:38 with refernence to the continuance of the evening and morning sacrifice.

I need to check these words, but at this stage I simply equate evening and morning with the continual burnt offering and thus would represent one day duration. I accept then the idea that one day for Antiochus, but one prophetic year for the greater fulfillment in Christ.

2. Daniel 8:7-8 and 22-23 demand that the "little horn" which takes away the daily offering and thus defiles the sanctuary, arises "out of" the Grecian kingdom. Neither Titus or Rome came "out of" any aspect of the Grecian kingdom. The Roman kingdom advanced over territories bequeathed and conquerored but never rose up "out of" such!

Then you dismiss my suggestion concerning the start with the province of Asia, received by inheritance, and then the detail of conquest in
Daniel 8:9 (KJV): "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

3. Daniel 8:11-14 never speak of Jerusalem or the sancturary being destroyed but only defiled and in need of cleansing. The defilement was caused by removing the "daily offering" (Dan. 8:11-13) and offering up a pig (1 Maccabees). In Contrast "armies" actually destroy the temple and the city of Jerusalem in the Olivet discourse. They are not one and the same events.

Rome defiled the sanctuary, that is the Holy Place and Most Holy by invading Jerusalem and destroying the Temple.

Again I will look more closely at each part of your detail next week.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dr. Walter]

Greetings again Dr Walter,
I decided to briefly answer some aspects of your response in a general way without an accurate or complete answer while on line, but will be busy tomorrow and weekend and will add any further detail if I can find adequate information or reasons early next week.

Fair enough!

I accept then the idea that one day for Antiochus, but one prophetic year for the greater fulfillment in Christ.

Are you saying that the "little horn" in Daniel 8 refers to "Christ"??? Daniel 8:10-11, 23-25 all describe the "little horn" and how would those descriptions be applicable to "Christ"?

Rome defiled the sanctuary, that is the Holy Place and Most Holy by invading Jerusalem and destroying the Temple.

There is a difference between defiling and destroying it! The defilement in Daniel 8:11-13 was remedied by "cleansing" the sanctuary but AD 70 demolished the sanctuary leaving nothing to cleanse!

 

[BobRyan]

Greetings Bob,
Not sure what you had in mind, as the full scope of the vision starts with the Ram and ends with the second coming of Jesus, when the little Grecian horn is destroyed Daniel 8:25, 12:40-45. What power or individual do you identify as the end time king of the north? This has not yet happened, so where do you start and finish your timeline?

Timeline to fit the opening post suggestion:
BC 334 ----------------- 2300 years ----------------- 1967
Battle of Granicus------------------------------------- Six-day War
Antagonistic Gentile power invades Judah -----Jerusalem recaptured from Gentiles
| _______________________________________________|

Trevor -- welcome to the discussion.

You bring up good questions.

Starting point of the Dan 8 vision

The Ram (Medo Persia) is not dead in Dan 8:3 but is alive and dominating and is conquering - it is moving out in all directions.

3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.

The vision in vs 3 and 4 is not starting with the death of the Ram. It starts AFTER the rise of the Ram to power... (it is standing). It continues to a time when the Ram is conquering toward the West, North and South.

The dominate period for Medo-Persia when no one can stand before it is part of the vision.

So some point in the 5th century BC at least.

Since no specific date is given in Dan 8 -- we go to Dan 9 where the start of the Angel visit begins with

22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding.
23 "At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

The Angel starts by giving understanding of the vision - the vision of Dan 8 and in Dan 9 the angel foretells an event in the 5th century B.C. that would start the Dan 8 vision -- the conquering time of Medo-Persia. So we have the start of the vision.


Scope of Vision:

The vision itself goes from vs 3 to vs 12.

Vs 12 is not the 2nd coming.


End point of Vision

Vs 13 begins the explanation of the vision given by Angelic narratives/commentary/review/expansion on the details etc -

It starts with the question about the scope of the vision "how long is the vision".

The answer is 2300 evening and mornings ( 2300 years using day for year as we see in Dan 9 with the 70 weeks).


in Christ,

Bob




in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Starting point of the Dan 8 vision


The vision in vs 3 and 4 is not starting with the death of the Ram. It starts AFTER the rise of the Ram to power... (it is standing). It continues to a time when the Ram is conquering toward the West, North and South.

The dominate period for Medo-Persia when no one can stand before it is part of the vision.QUOTE]

Bob, what is this? "it is PART of the vision"???? Trevor says the vision begins with the Ram and therefore the 2300 must begin with the Ram where the vision begins but and you are forced to dissect the vision and deny that the 2300 begins where vision begins?????? You are now forced to pick a starting point WITHIN the vision for the 2300 to start???????? Well, well, well what do we have here????

You are right! The 2300 does not begin with the ram, or with the goat, or with the four generals or with the rise of the "little horn" but with the specific acts of the "little horn" listed in Daniel 8:11-13 within the THIRD KINGDOM.

 

[BobRyan]

.

Starting point of the Dan 8 vision

The Ram (Medo Persia) is not dead in Dan 8:3 but is alive and dominating and is conquering - it is moving out in all directions.

3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.

The vision in vs 3 and 4 is not starting with the death of the Ram. It starts AFTER the rise of the Ram to power... (it is standing). It continues to a time when the Ram is conquering toward the West, North and South.

The dominate period for Medo-Persia when no one can stand before it is part of the vision.

So some point in the 5th century BC at least.

Since no specific date is given in Dan 8 -- we go to Dan 9 where the start of the Angel visit begins with

22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding.
23 "At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

The Angel starts by giving understanding of the vision - the vision of Dan 8 and in Dan 9 the angel foretells an event in the 5th century B.C. that would start the Dan 8 vision -- the conquering time of Medo-Persia. So we have the start of the vision.

Bob, what is this? "it is PART of the vision"???? Trevor says the vision begins with the Ram and therefore the 2300 must begin with the Ram where the vision begins but and you are forced to dissect the vision and deny that the 2300 begins where vision begins?

Your statement makes no sense at all.

Medo-Persia is shown "standing" already in power in vs 3.

Medo-Persia is seen conquering toward 3 directions of the compass in vs 4 and no one is able to stand before it.

These two key details identify the start.

The vision does not start with the Ram rising up -- but the Ram already standing.

Walter:
The 2300 does not begin with the ram, .

Well then - you are apparently lost again when it comes to the details of the text. How many ways can you find to lost the point when the text itself says 'How long is the VISION".

You have to start - with the START of that vision.

Which is a time in the 5th century B.C when Medo-Persia is already standing.

The Point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your statement makes no sense at all.

You know exactly what I am saying and you know exactly what problem he is putting before you whether you agree with him or not. He starts the 2300 where the vision starts and YOU DO NOT - you explictly choose a "part" of the vision where you want to begin the 2300 just as I select a "part" of the vision where the 2300 begins except my choice is clearly and explicitly stated to be God's choice with the word "concerning"!


What you have to do is to CHOOSE what PART you want the 2300 to begin with just as I did. You have shot your own argument against me in the foot!

 

[BobRyan]

You are getting confused in your own argument.

I have consistently stated that the 2300 years is the time span for ALL of the vision - FROM start to END. Start in vs 3 -- END in vs 12.

That has not changed. I have said it a dozen times.

I point to the START of the vision in vs 3 and 4 describing the START in detail. I point out that the 5th Century B.C. is the best time frame for that start because at the START Medo Persia is ALREADY standing and WILL yet conquer toward three dicretions of the compas.

Where is this me changing anything at all in my argument?

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are getting confused in your own argument.

I have consistently stated that the 2300 years is the time span for ALL of the vision - FROM start to END. Start in vs 3 -- END in vs 12.

That has not changed. I have said it a dozen times.

I point to the START of the vision in vs 3 and 4 describing the START in detail. I point out that the 5th Century B.C. is the best time frame for that start because at the START Medo Persia is ALREADY standing and WILL yet conquer toward three dicretions of the compas.

Where is this me changing anything at all in my argument?

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

You are right! I misread your statement! You are not right about your interpretation!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dr. Walter,

Fair enough!

I appreciate your patience. I have not caught up with Bob Ryan's comments yet and you discussion here with him.

We had a Bible Study and fellowship weekend with a visiting speaker from Perth, WA. He spoke of aspects of the lives of Abraham, Joshua, Gideon and Hezekiah as patterns of the sufferings of Christ and his Second Coming, especially the events surrounding Armageddon. I benefited by a discussion with him of the latter part of Daniel 8. Perhaps Dr Walter you would agree that Isaiah 53 depicts not only the sufferings of God’s preeminent Servant, the Lord Jesus Christ, but they are patterned off the life and sufferings of God’s servant Hezekiah. I see this happening in many parts of the OT, where local events and people are used as the basis for revealing the things of Christ, and my view of Daniel 8 is similar.

I will use your more recent post (#8), but also respond again to some of your earlier post (#5).

Are you saying that the "little horn" in Daniel 8 refers to "Christ"??? Daniel 8:10-11, 23-25 all describe the "little horn" and how would those descriptions be applicable to "Christ"?

No, I consider "the prince of the host" in v11 and "the Prince of princes" is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, in his first advent in v11, and second advent v25:
Daniel 8:11 (KJV): "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."
Daniel 8:25 (KJV): "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

There is a difference between defiling and destroying it! The defilement in Daniel 8:11-13 was remedied by "cleansing" the sanctuary but AD 70 demolished the sanctuary leaving nothing to cleanse!

Please check the meaning of the word here. This is the only place where this word is translated as "cleansed". See also comments below.

In responding to your earlier post again, I will repeat my answer to your item 2, and alter or adjust my answers to items 1 and 3.

1. The 2300 number has to do with the "daily offering" (Dan. 8:11-13) as the period between when it is removed (Dan. 8:11-12) and when it is restored (Dan. 8:13-14). The language used in Daniel 8:14,26 is not the same language used in Genesis 1 with reference to the evening and morning 24 hour day but refers to Exodus 29:38-39 and the evening and morning offering. The term translated "daily" in Daniel 8:11-13 is the same term used in Exodus 29:38 with reference to the continuance of the evening and morning sacrifice.

I have checked the words, but it has not altered my earlier opinion with a slight addition "I simply equate evening and morning" in this context with the continual burnt offering and thus would represent one-day duration. I accept then the idea that one day for Antiochus and the Jews at that time (a duration of 2300 days), but one prophetic year for the greater fulfillment of the duration of the antagonistic ascendancy of the Greco-Roman powers and their successors (a duration of 2300 years). In this period the "little horn" power crucifies Christ and destroys the temple in AD70 as depicted in:
Daniel 8:11-12 (KJV): "11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered."
This "little horn" power will also confront Jesus at Jesus’ return and Jesus will at this time destroy this particular "little horn" power.
Daniel 8:25 (KJV): "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Daniel 11:40 (KJV): "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over."
Daniel 11:45 (KJV): "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

2. Daniel 8:7-8 and 22-23 demand that the "little horn" which takes away the daily offering and thus defiles the sanctuary, arises "out of" the Grecian kingdom. Neither Titus or Rome came "out of" any aspect of the Grecian kingdom. The Roman kingdom advanced over territories bequeathed and conquerored but never rose up "out of" such!

Then you dismiss my suggestion concerning the start with the province of Asia, received by inheritance, and then the detail of conquest in:
Daniel 8:9 (KJV): "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

3. Daniel 8:11-14 never speak of Jerusalem or the sancturary being destroyed but only defiled and in need of cleansing. The defilement was caused by removing the "daily offering" (Dan. 8:11-13) and offering up a pig (1 Maccabees). In Contrast "armies" actually destroy the temple and the city of Jerusalem in the Olivet discourse. They are not one and the same events.

The following replaces my original response:
Daniel 8:11-14 (KJV): "11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
The highlighted terms in Daniel 8:11-14 above also speak to me of the events of AD70.
"taken away" not "defiled" as you claim.
"cast down" – note it is "the place of the sanctuary" that was to be cast down, not just the defilement of the altar of burnt offering. This seems to be more extensive than what happened with Antiochus and I believe that Jesus is alluding to this in:
Matthew 24:1-2 (KJV): 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
"an host" that is an army.
"desolation" seems to speak of more than defiling the altar. Same word S#8074 used three times in Daniel 9:26-27.
"trodden under foot" seems to speak of more than defiling the altar, and is the term that describes the march, conquest and subjugation by an army and is similar to the term used by Jesus concerning AD 70 and beyond, "trodden down of the Gentiles".
Also the word translated "cleansed" here is usually translated "justified"/ There may be a bias in the translation to fit the events of Antiochus.

The true cleansing of the sanctuary commences with the Most Holy, and this was accomplished in Jesus’ crucifixion, death and resurrection to immortality and glory. The term cleansing if translated justified, speaks of the righteousness of God declared in the death and resurrection of Christ Romans 1:16-17, 3:25-26, and which then flows on to all believers of the gospel. Then the believers will be united with Christ at his coming, and then Israel and the nations will be converted. Scriptures also teach that a Temple will be built at the return of Christ and this will be dedicated and become the centre of divine worship in the age to come Isaiah 2, Ezekiel 40-48, Zechariah 14.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

Trevor -- welcome to the discussion.

You bring up good questions.
Starting point of the Dan 8 vision
The Ram (Medo Persia) is not dead in Dan 8:3 but is alive and dominating and is conquering - it is moving out in all directions.
3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.
The vision in vs 3 and 4 is not starting with the death of the Ram. It starts AFTER the rise of the Ram to power... (it is standing). It continues to a time when the Ram is conquering toward the West, North and South.
The dominate period for Medo-Persia when no one can stand before it is part of the vision.
So some point in the 5th century BC at least.

I would be interested in further detail here.

Since no specific date is given in Dan 8 -- we go to Dan 9 where the start of the Angel visit begins with

22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding.
23 "At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision.
The Angel starts by giving understanding of the vision - the vision of Dan 8 and in Dan 9 the angel foretells an event in the 5th century B.C. that would start the Dan 8 vision -- the conquering time of Medo-Persia. So we have the start of the vision.
Scope of Vision:
The vision itself goes from vs 3 to vs 12.
Vs 12 is not the 2nd coming.
End point of Vision
Vs 13 begins the explanation of the vision given by Angelic narratives/commentary/review/expansion on the details etc -
It starts with the question about the scope of the vision "how long is the vision".
The answer is 2300 evening and mornings ( 2300 years using day for year as we see in Dan 9 with the 70 weeks).

I certainly believe that Daniel 8 and 9 are connected, but I believe that a major aspect of the 2300 is as before mentioned BC334 to AD 1967. There could be two starting points and two finishing points, as we see with the 70 years captivity in Babylon. Could you give me what year you believe it started and what year finished, and what happened in this finishing year. 1843-1844? Are you connected with Millerism? Also you did not respond to my earlier question on Joel 3:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
You bring up good questions.
Starting point of the Dan 8 vision
The Ram (Medo Persia) is not dead in Dan 8:3 but is alive and dominating and is conquering - it is moving out in all directions.
3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.
The vision in vs 3 and 4 is not starting with the death of the Ram. It starts AFTER the rise of the Ram to power... (it is standing). It continues to a time when the Ram is conquering toward the West, North and South.
The dominate period for Medo-Persia when no one can stand before it is part of the vision.
So some point in the 5th century BC at least.

Greetings again Bob, I would be interested in further detail here.

Ok - what part would you like to explore in more detail? What questions are on the table?

I certainly believe that Daniel 8 and 9 are connected, but I believe that a major aspect of the 2300 is as before mentioned BC334 to AD 1967. There could be two starting points and two finishing points, as we see with the 70 years captivity in Babylon. Could you give me what year you believe it started and what year finished, and what happened in this finishing year. 1843-1844? Are you connected with Millerism? Also you did not respond to my earlier question on Joel 3:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor -- I have a suggestion as a trial run. I suggest that no prophetic timelines -- numbered and fully identified - are to be sliced and diced with multiple starts and multiple-ends and undefined gaps of time inserted into the midst. not one single prophetic timeline in all of scripture can survive such methods.

So for example - Dan 9 starts out with the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah. That prophecy cannot be sliced into independent segments with undefined gaps inserted here and there as the reader is so inclined. The same is true with the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel, the 2300 day prophecy of Dan 8, the 1260 year prophecy of Dan 7 and Rev 11, and Rev 12, and Rev 13 etc.

All timelines in the Bible are contiguous when they are numbered otherwise the numbering completely falls apart.

A 12 inch ruler only works if it is in one piece.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

No, I consider "the prince of the host" in v11 and "the Prince of princes" is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, in his first advent in v11, and second advent v25:
Daniel 8:11 (KJV): "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."
Daniel 8:25 (KJV): "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

I have no probelm with a double application. The immediate - Antiochus Epiphanes and then the remote and complete - The Anti-christ at the end of this age. However, I have a real problem with any attempt that tries to place it in the beginning of the fourth kingdom. Rome did not "rise up out of" any Grecian territory. Bequeathing land to Rome only means that Rome already existed separate from all Grecian territory and therefore could not have risen up out of any Grecian territory. The fourth kingdom does not rise up out of Grecian territory. Neither did the General Titus or any other Roman Emperor.

Please check the meaning of the word here. This is the only place where this word is translated as "cleansed". See also comments below.

Go with any meaning of this word and no meaning of this word is reconciliable with destroyed or destruction as in the Olivet Discourse! It is the abomination that is made right, justified, or cleansed and the abomination is the removal of the daily offering.

I have checked the words, but it has not altered my earlier opinion with a slight addition "I simply equate evening and morning" in this context with the continual burnt offering and thus would represent one-day duration. I accept then the idea that one day for Antiochus and the Jews at that time (a duration of 2300 days), but one prophetic year for the greater fulfillment of the duration of the antagonistic ascendancy of the Greco-Roman powers and their successors (a duration of 2300 years). In this period the "little horn" power crucifies Christ and destroys the temple in AD70 as depicted in:

I believe you are making a crucial mistake. The abominable act is the removal of the daily offering and the compensation for that act is its restoral through ceremonial cleansing! Still the "evening/morning" has to do with the sacrifice and its time of offering not with 2300 years. 2300 years have absolutely nothing to do with the "daily offering" or time it is being offered. Hence, your secondary application defies any possible relationship with "the daily offering" as the period whereby twice a day the sacrifice was offered up. 1967 did not see any restoration of the "daily offering" and neither did 1843-44 see any restoration of the "daily offering."

Then you dismiss my suggestion concerning the start with the province of Asia, received by inheritance, and then the detail of conquest in:

Titus did not rise up out of that Province neither did the Roman kingdom! The Roman kingdom simply took control of it as it did the rest of the world. However, Daniel 8:9 explicitly says that "out of one of them came forth a little horn" - Titus did not come forth out of the Grecian Empire. The Roman Empire did not arise out of any of the Grecian Kingdoms as Greece NEVER ruled over Italy or Rome.

"taken away" not "defiled" as you claim.

The term "cleansed" or "made righteous" conveys the idea of ceremonial defilement in regard to the "daily sacrifice." No uncircumcised Gentile could take away that sacrifice without defiling the altar and temple. Furthermore, the 2300 has reference to the "daily sacrifice" being taken away until its restoration. It was not restored in 1843-44 as Ryan believes. It was not restored in 1967 as you suggest by your dating. Your spiritualization to 2300 years has no relationship to the "daily offering" being taken away and being made right, cleansed, restored.

"an host" that is an army.

Not necessarily, Daniel 8:11 uses it to describe God's people and it could be the giving of God's people into his hands that makes it possible to take away the daily offering:

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Here the "host" and "stars" are synonymous and simply mean the Prince's people or the people of God.

"desolation" seems to speak of more than defiling the altar. Same word S#8074 used three times in Daniel 9:26-27.
"trodden under foot" seems to speak of more than defiling the altar, and is the term that describes the march, conquest and subjugation by an army and is similar to the term used by Jesus concerning AD 70 and beyond, "trodden down of the Gentiles".

Antiochus made conquest of Jerusalem and it came under his control. It was "trodden down of the Gentiles" or abused and controlled by them. The temple was desolated of its function and sacrifices.

The true cleansing of the sanctuary commences with the Most Holy, and this was accomplished in Jesus’ crucifixion, death and resurrection to immortality and glory. The term cleansing if translated justified, speaks of the righteousness of God declared in the death and resurrection of Christ Romans 1:16-17, 3:25-26, and which then flows on to all believers of the gospel. Then the believers will be united with Christ at his coming, and then Israel and the nations will be converted. Scriptures also teach that a Temple will be built at the return of Christ and this will be dedicated and become the centre of divine worship in the age to come Isaiah 2, Ezekiel 40-48, Zechariah 14.

The 2300 period is a measurement of time between the daily offering being taken away and being made right, restored, cleansed! There is no possible way that 2300 years can terminate from the taking away of the daily sacrifice unto the cross, much less, 1967 or 1843-44.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9: The 70 weeks of days in Dan 9 are weeks of years using the day for a year principle.

Dan 8: The 2300 "evening mornings" are 2300 days also using the day for year principle.

Dan 7: The 1260 days (time time and 1/2 time = 42 months, 1260 days -- same as in Rev 11, 12, 13) -- are also day for a year - and refer to the dark ages. Interesting that it starts after the fall of the pagan Roman empire in Dan 7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dan 8: The 2300 "evening mornings" are 2300 days also using the day for year principle.

Absolute hogwash! The 2300 measure the removal of the daily offering until it is restored. It has nothing to do with anything other than the "daily offering" and its removal until its restoration during the Grecian Period.