Calvinism/origin of sin 2

[Osage Bluestem]

You take away the free will of man which previously was posted by a Calvinist that man had one. What a contradiction!

As far as man is concerned he is free. He freely does what he wants according to who he is. There is no contradiction because man doesn't have the mind of God, he has the mind of man.

This is the typical argument used by Calvinists. I get weary of it.
We all know (non-Cals and others) that Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Your argument is moot. The sacrifice of Christ, where Christ went willingly to the cross, and, in fact, would let nothing hinder him from going to the cross, has nothing to do with:
1. What Job's wife said.
2. A young virgin getting raped against her will.
3. A young women getting an abortion.
4. The slaughter of innocent people by Ghaddafi and other such dictators.

Sin is the result of sinful choices made by sinful men who have a sinful nature that they were born with as a result of the Fall.

Sinful choices are indeed made by sinful men. However God has decreed them all. But since he is perfect everything he does works out for the good of his family and for his own glory in accordance with his perfect plan.

Don't attribute those things to a monstrous god.

You are the one judging God as he is revealed in scripture. I never said he was monsterous. I believe his sovereignty is in accordance with all of his attributes. All things work together for the good of those who love him. For those who don't, however, things will indeed not go as they desire, because God desires good and they desire evil. Good will be because God has decreed it to be so. God is good.

 

[percho]

Per my understanding.

Adam was not created into the kingdom of God. He was created from, on and for this earthly kingdom as a living soul of corruptible substance. He like all since him born of the flesh in order to see, enter and/or inherit the kingdom of God would need to be born of the Spirit, the tree of life. The kingdom of God is the gospel. Jesus first taught it, those that heard from him taught it, (includes Paul). Adam was created for this world yet through his kind one would come that through him Adam (man) would be made fit for the world to come (the kingdom of God). He also would be made to die that through death he could be resurrected to life again thus destroying Satan and delivering man from death and the fear of death. What I am saying is the first Adam (man) did not fall from anything, he was created to die as was the second Adam was made flesh to die. It is not like something went wrong in the garden of Eden it went according to plan.

Hebrews 2 one of the most beautiful chapters in the word of God.

Genesis. What does this mean? As Paul Harvey would say we need to hear the rest of the story.

Colsossians 1:18 And he (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,

The beginning of what? 1 Cor. 15:45 last part. The last Adam was made a quickening spirit. V-46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Afterward, what?

Col. 1:18 the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

This is the reason the first man Adam was created the way he was.

 

[Robert Snow]

Your quote from Piper says God is the author of sin. I was only quoting him.

Also, I watched the film clip you posted in the other thread and there Piper says all sins and evil were preordained by God, all wife beatings ... I do not remember the whole list. But it certainly sounded as if he attributes all sin to God in that God preordained the evil.

As I said in other posts, what kind of father would predestine pain and suffering on his children in order to show how loving he is?

You say they have a choice, but at the same time you say they were predestined to select wrongly .. so they really had no choice. That can only be the logical conclusion of predestination and/or pre-ordination.

I can only go by what you quote from him.

I agree that Piper and the other Calvinists who believe this is wrong. It seem the more I learn about Calvinism, the more convinced of its falseness. I don't see how someone who reads the bible could agree with this confusing and twisted view of God!

 

[Skandelon]

It was decreed from the foundation of the world. Like all sins.

Decreed in what manner? Some theological dictionaries explain different kinds of divine decrees, one an active decree by which God does something by his direct agency and the other a permissive decree by which God allows other agents to freely act in a way that he knew they would without hindering them. Which do you mean and do you allow for permissive decrees in any sense?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Decreed in what manner? Some theological dictionaries explain different kinds of divine decrees, one an active decree by which God does something by his direct agency and the other a permissive decree by which God allows other agents to freely act in a way that he knew they would without hindering them. Which do you mean and do you allow for permissive decrees in any sense?

God has decreed that this event will occur period. There is no deviation from the path in any way shape or form. God has written every single event that will occur ever.

 

[Cypress]

So are all our actions decreed before we do them in your opinion?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

So are all our actions decreed before we do them in your opinion?

Yes. All of our actions are decreed before we do them.

 

[Robert Snow]

Yes. All of our actions are decreed before we do them.

So, when a pervert rapes a child, he is only doing what God decreed, right?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

So, when a pervert rapes a child, he is only doing what God decreed, right?

Yes he is, but for a different reason than God's reason. The pervert has an evil reason and God has a good reason.

 

[Fred's Wife]

Yes he is, but for a different reason than God's reason. The pervert has an evil reason and God has a good reason.

Are you saying that God causes man to sin?

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God does not cause man to sin. Man sins because he follows, of his own will, the pattern in the verses above. First he gives into lust and enticed. When he gives into that lust, he commits sin.

When man commits sin God is not in the picture at all.

 

[percho]

I agree that Piper and the other Calvinists who believe this is wrong. It seem the more I learn about Calvinism, the more convinced of its falseness. I don't see how someone who reads the bible could agree with this confusing and twisted view of God!

God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Maybe when we get sick to our stomach of slaughtering one another we will cry out for the love of God.

As bad as it is, it has only begun. We are flesh and we carry the sick desires of the flesh and as Paul would say, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The result of free will.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Are you saying that God causes man to sin?

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God does not cause man to sin. Man sins because he follows, of his own will, the pattern in the verses above. First he gives into lust and enticed. When he gives into that lust, he commits sin.

When man commits sin God is not in the picture at all.

God doesn't tempt man directly. But he does send evil spirits to do it for him. They don't have to work to hard though as man is naturally evil anyway and tempts himself. A decree and temptation are two entirely different things.

1 Kings 22:19-23 ESV
19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; 20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”

God also sends harmful spirits to torment people who need tormenting:

1 Samuel 16:14 ESV
14 Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him.

The bible also records that some reject Christ as they were destined to do:

1 Peter 2:8 ESV
8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

The bible clearly records that God predestined the most heinous sin in hisotry:

Acts 4:27-28 ESV
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

And remember God turning Job over to Satan for a time?

Job 1:6-12 ESV
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan [2] also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

Check out this article by Vincent Cheung:
http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/05/31/the-author-of-sin/

Cheung's answer to the charge that Calvinist theology makes God the author of sin is, "so"?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Remember this one?

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
7I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

And for all of you KJV only IFB folks guess what:

Isaiah 45:7 KJV
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

That's pretty clear to me.

 

[Winman]

First, it was the angel's idea to be a lying spirit, not God's, although God did allow it. God had already determined that Ahab would die in chapter 21.

It was the same for Job, it was Satan's idea to attack him, the Lord allowed it to prove that Job truly loved him, and not because he was blessed. He defeated Satan in this challenge when Job remained faithful.

And God did not cause the chief priests and scribes to crucify Jesus, they hated him out of envy and had long sought to kill him.

In all these cases God allowed sin to fulfill a great purpose, but he did not motivate any or tempt anyone to sin.

 

[Skandelon]

God doesn't tempt man directly. But he does send evil spirits to do it for him. They don't have to work to hard though as man is naturally evil anyway and tempts himself. A decree and temptation are two entirely different things.

But to say that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass is to say that God decrees the temptation of man which James clearly and unequivocally denies. The obvious and clear intent of James is to rid someone of the concept (often held by those in OT times especially) that God is responsible for the temptation to do evil.

There are many things the revelation of the NT made clear to us. Things like the fact that we are no longer to be seen as slaves, but instead "friends" of God. We no longer receive a spirit of slavery and fear, but one of adoption and love. Likewise, the view of God's nature is being made more clear in the NT by showing that He is transcendent and Holy and should not be blamed in such ways for the evils of this world. Your dogma reverses that teaching to put the culpability right back onto God. It is not a biblical teaching.

 

[DHK]

Remember this one?

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
7I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

And for all of you KJV only IFB folks guess what:

Isaiah 45:7 KJV
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

That's pretty clear to me.

As you have shown the "calamity" and "evil" in this verse are synonymous. They refer to natural disasters like the earthquake/tsunami that hit Japan recently. These disasters have been happening ever since the creation of the world. From man's perspective he often views them as evil. But God has his perspective and purpose in all of these things. This verse does not teach:

I the Lord create the rapist, the serial bomber, the ruthless genocidic dictator. It doesn't say or teach that. It is speaking of natural "calamities," or disasters.

 

[Fred's Wife]

As you have shown the "calamity" and "evil" in this verse are synonymous. They refer to natural disasters like the earthquake/tsunami that hit Japan recently. These disasters have been happening ever since the creation of the world. From man's perspective he often views them as evil. But God has his perspective and purpose in all of these things. This verse does not teach:

I the Lord create the rapist, the serial bomber, the ruthless genocidic dictator. It doesn't say or teach that. It is speaking of natural "calamities," or disasters.

:thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[Crabtownboy]

In reply to a post speaking of God allowing evil for his own glory, I said:

Quote:
So God is egotistical and needs us to praise him, in the misery he caused, so he will feel good?[/quote

Osage replied:

No. That is actually a very blasphemous thing to say. God is true to all of his attributes in his sovereignty.

I agree, it is blasphemous, but that is exactly what Calvinist are saying according to the quotes given in this and other threads.

 

[Robert Snow]

Yes he is, but for a different reason than God's reason. The pervert has an evil reason and God has a good reason.

If it were your wife, or daughter, I'll let you then thank God for allowing you to be be part of something God decreed for a supposed good reason. What garbage! And you wonder why many Christians see this system of doctrine as a doctrine of evil!

 

[quantumfaith]

As far as man is concerned he is free. He freely does what he wants according to who he is. There is no contradiction because man doesn't have the mind of God, he has the mind of man.



Sinful choices are indeed made by sinful men. However God has decreed them all. But since he is perfect everything he does works out for the good of his family and for his own glory in accordance with his perfect plan.




You are the one judging God as he is revealed in scripture. I never said he was monsterous. I believe his sovereignty is in accordance with all of his attributes. All things work together for the good of those who love him. For those who don't, however, things will indeed not go as they desire, because God desires good and they desire evil. Good will be because God has decreed it to be so. God is good.

:BangHead::BangHead::tear: