Conditional Election

[Van]

The only credibility that is lowered is that of Calvinists who do not recognize their doctrine when posted. Note how my version matches the version posted by Iconoclast.

 

[Van]

Strange that the author of Hebrews saw it from the view that Jesus as the High priest can keep ETERNALLY those who draw nigh unto Him...
Jude gave praise to God the ftaher and Jesus, who ARE to keep from stumbling , to keep forever, those of the faith..
John recorded that jesus dsaid that he will keep and raise up at last day ALL those whom the Father had given him...

Does this sound like "conditional Election?"

Yes, we are chosen conditionally, bases on God crediting our faith as righteousness, but once we are chosen we are placed in Christ, redeemed, and now we are saved forever and no condition, our subsequent sin, will cause us to loose our positional sanctification in Christ. No one can take us out of His hand not even ourselves because God protects our faith, 1 Peter 1:3-5

 

[J.D.]

Van, you're way off on this one. Give it up. See if you can make some better free will decisions in your next thread.

 

[Van]

Hi J.D. I may well be way off. But your job is to use specific scriptures to correct my errant views. Election is conditional, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, but salvation to eternal life is not conditional once actually saved, its settled.

 

[The Archangel]

Hi J.D. I may well be way off. But your job is to use specific scriptures to correct my errant views. Election is conditional, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, but salvation to eternal life is not conditional once actually saved, its settled.

Let me guess...

You're reading James 2:5 in the NASB which says:

Listen, ​my beloved brethren: did not ​God choose the poor ​​of this world to be ​rich in faith and ​​heirs of the kingdom which He ​​promised to those who love Him?
​

And you're assuming that "in faith" [ἐν πίστει] to be related to the verb ἐξελέξατο in some causal way?

So, is this what you are saying: God chose us. How? He chose us because of our faith?

Is this what you are saying James 2:5 says?

The Archangel

 

[JesusFan]

Let me guess...

You're reading James 2:5 in the NASB which says:

Listen, ​my beloved brethren: did not ​God choose the poor ​​of this world to be ​rich in faith and ​​heirs of the kingdom which He ​​promised to those who love Him?
​

And you're assuming that "in faith" [ἐν πίστει] to be related to the verb ἐξελέξατο in some causal way?

So, is this what you are saying: God chose us. How? He chose us because of our faith?

Is this what you are saying James 2:5 says?

The Archangel

Any idea if Ephesians passage bears on this discussion, with its emphasis on BOTH the grace and faith to be saved being gifts from God?

Not of OUR works?

Or
John saying that it was by Will of God, NOT man, that we would be able to be called Sons of God?

 

[The Archangel]

Any idea if Ephesians passage bears on this discussion, with its emphasis on BOTH the grace and faith to be saved being gifts from God?

Not of OUR works?

Or
John saying that it was by Will of God, NOT man, that we would be able to be called Sons of God?

Do you mean Ephesians 2:8-9?

What passage in John are you referring to?

As far as the Ephesians passage goes (if, indeed, you are referring to 2:8-9) grace itself isn't likely the gift; faith itself isn't likely the gift. Grammatically, "it" is neuter and grace and faith are both feminine. However, Greek will sometimes use a neuter pronoun to refer to a larger concept (regardless of the gender contained in that larger concept).

So, it would seem that Paul is saying salvation is a gift and that gift includes both grace and faith as two sides of the same coin of salvation.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[jbh28]

The only credibility that is lowered is that of Calvinists who do not recognize their doctrine when posted. Note how my version matches the version posted by Iconoclast.

I recognize my doctrine just fine, it's you that's changing it. Is it irresistible? Yes. Is it always irresistible? No. The non-elect resist their whole lives. The elect can resist, but only up to a point when they are converted.

And did you read Iconoclast's post?

"Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;"

That means that before the "appointed and accepted time" God can be resisted.

 

[Van]

"Irresistible Grace (or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect), whereby in God's timing, he overcomes their resistance to the call of the gospel and irresistibly brings them to a saving faith in Christ."

ROFLOL, that is what I said.

Calvinist said this was not the doctrine of Irresistible Grace, but in every aspect it has been shown to be exactly that. So the claim that it was not was simply as I said a denial of the doctrine of grace called Irresistible Grace.

 

[jbh28]

"Irresistible Grace (or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect), whereby in God's timing, he overcomes their resistance to the call of the gospel and irresistibly brings them to a saving faith in Christ."

ROFLOL, that is what I said.

Calvinist said this was not the doctrine of Irresistible Grace, but in every aspect it has been shown to be exactly that. So the claim that it was not was simply as I said a denial of the doctrine of grace called Irresistible Grace.

No, what you quoted is fine. I thought you were posting to say that I was incorrect that people do resist the Holy Spirit.

 

[Van]

No, I was not addressing our capacity to resist the Holy Spirit, or even "Common Grace"

I was addressing conditional election devoid of the doctrine of "Irresistible Grace."

Irresistible Grace is demonstrated false doctrine by Matthew 23:13, where men are "entering heaven" yet are turned away by false doctrine. According to Calvinism, unless a person has been altered from their condition of total spiritual inablity, they could not be entering heaven. But, because they were turned away, the grace that allowed them to be entering heaven was not irresistible.

Therefore, both the T and I in TULIP are false doctrines.

As far as Conditional Election, I was not talking about Conditional Salvation where if you stumble you lose your inheritance reserved in Heaven. Once actually saved, its settled. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

But God elects (chooses) individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness, therefore His election for salvation is conditional, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, John 1:12-13 and so forth.

 

[freeatlast]

Well, I would agree with your firs two, but not the third. Faith isn't a work.

faith is a work.

1Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Thess 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

 

[Van]

The issues concerning describing faith as a work are: (1) a salvation not of works would suggest it is not based on a work (not true but there it is); (2) after salvation we are a new creation, created for good works, so our "work of faith" after salvation refers to our faithful faith, a faith that is alive as shown by works; and (3) if our belief and trust in the gospel is our work rather than God's "gift of faith", does that not make our faith a work of merit?

Jesus referred to our trusting in Him as a work of God. Calvinists see "work of God" as something God did, but that view ignores the context. Jesus was answering the question "what can we do - so the action of the people and not God is being addressed - to work the works of God and Jesus replied, the work of God - meaning the work God requires of you - is to believe. John 6:28-29

After we are saved and regenerated as a new creation, we follow Christ and abide in His teachings, making disciples and teaching them as ambassadors of Christ. This is our work of faith.

Our placing our faith in Christ is not a work of merit and thus contributing to our salvation. It is God who credits our worthless filthy rag faith as righteousness, so our faith had no merit in and of itself. Romans 5:2 says our faith in Christ provides our access to God's grace. And Romans 4:4-5 says God credits our faith as righteousness.

 

[freeatlast]

Yes I agree. While it is clear that works do not save that does not mean that works are not present. Even in the mist of works we still need grace making our salvation apart from any works.
Faith is a work and it is the only work that God has determined to bring about grace unto salvation. We are saved by grace and through faith which is a work. That work of faith does not make us worthy. It only makes us recipients of God's grace.

 

[Van]

Freeatlast, thumbs up!!

 

[jbh28]

No, I was not addressing our capacity to resist the Holy Spirit, or even "Common Grace"

I was addressing conditional election devoid of the doctrine of "Irresistible Grace."

Irresistible Grace is demonstrated false doctrine by Matthew 23:13, where men are "entering heaven" yet are turned away by false doctrine. According to Calvinism, unless a person has been altered from their condition of total spiritual inablity, they could not be entering heaven. But, because they were turned away, the grace that allowed them to be entering heaven was not irresistible

Which as I said, it's only irresistible to the elect at a certain time. All you are doing is showing somebody resisting which is perfectly acceptable with the doctrine.

Also, Matthew 23:13 is talking about the Pharisees and them being a hindrance to people going to heaven. Nothing about a man actually entering into heaven. (that would have a lot of other issues other than irresistible grace.)

As far as Conditional Election, I was not talking about Conditional Salvation where if you stumble you lose your inheritance reserved in Heaven. Once actually saved, its settled. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

Agreed, and good verse for that too.

 

[jbh28]

faith is a work.

1Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Thess 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Faith isn't a work in the sense that we use the word "works." Words have multiple meanings. Faith is continual and it works, which is what is being spoken of in T thess. passage.

 

[Van]

"Which as I said, it's only irresistible to the elect at a certain time. All you are doing is showing somebody resisting which is perfectly acceptable with the doctrine."

Yet another logical absurdity? They were entering heaven. They could not have been entering heaven if they had no spiritual ability. They had to have been altered which then irresistibly causes them to come to faith. There is no escape. Irresistible Grace is false doctrine.

We now have the new doctrine, created to address Matthew 23:13. God at one point in time alters the person so they can be "entering heaven" yet withholds irresistible compulsion to another, conveniently not in scripture, time where indeed this same folks did enter heaven.

Calvinism is not biblical, it revises scripture to fit man-made doctrine.

 

[freeatlast]

Faith isn't a work in the sense that we use the word "works." Words have multiple meanings. Faith is continual and it works, which is what is being spoken of in T thess. passage.

I would like to see you back that up from the Greek as the same word and structure is used in Eph 2:9. You are trying to change a noun into a adjective.

 

[jbh28]

"Which as I said, it's only irresistible to the elect at a certain time. All you are doing is showing somebody resisting which is perfectly acceptable with the doctrine."

Yet another logical absurdity? They were entering heaven. They could not have been entering heaven if they had no spiritual ability. They had to have been altered which then irresistibly causes them to come to faith. There is no escape. Irresistible Grace is false doctrine.

Doesn't say anything about people actually entering heaven. They didn't enter. Irresistible grace still in tact.

We now have the new doctrine, created to address Matthew 23:13. God at one point in time alters the person so they can be "entering heaven" yet withholds irresistible compulsion to another, conveniently not in scripture, time where indeed this same folks did enter heaven.

Calvinism is not biblical, it revises scripture to fit man-made doctrine.

You haven't address anything but created as straw man as usual. Come back when you can address my real view.