Does the New Testament Teach The Plan or Individual Election?

[JesusFan]

Some hold that it is the Plan of God that was/is Elected, that the Plan to put those of faith in jesus into Church and than start the predestination process
others that the NT teaches us individual election, that saints were elected, not the plan itself

is it either /or, or could both be somehow true?

 

[Van]

God's plan for redemption was not "elected" God chose the Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer, and when He did He elected corporately those His redeemer would redeem,hence, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. God did choose to formulate His redemption plan, according to His purpose of creation, to choose a people for His own possession who would bring glory to Him.

Anyone God places spiritually in Christ was elected corporately from before the foundation of the world because when the person is placed in Christ, He becomes part of the corporately elected group of those Christ would redeem. And so our individual election for salvation is done by the means of the Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ, and sealing us in Christ with the Holy Spirit, and this individual election is based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

So by the numbers:
(1) God chose Christ - an individual election,
which resulted in,
(2) God corporately electing those Christ would redeem, and
(3) God chose us individually during our lifetime and placed us in Christ and thus into the corporately elected group based on crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

[Jarthur001]

So by the numbers:
(1) God chose Christ - an individual election,
which resulted in,
(2) God corporately electing those Christ would redeem, and
(3) God chose us individually during our lifetime and placed us in Christ and thus into the corporately elected group based on crediting our faith as righteousness.

humm...just Mans logic,

Now if you look at Scripture......

it says..


Isa 42...

10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

Pretty clear...right?

 

[InTheLight]

humm...just Mans logic,

Now if you look at Scripture......

it says..


Isa 42...
Pretty clear...right?

No, because the verses in Isaiah 42 are talking about someone who was chosen for service, not salvation.

1 Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations.

2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

4 he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.

 

[StefanM]

[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30 ESV)

One may disagree regarding the mechanics of election, but individuals are clearly in mind.

 

[Jarthur001]

No, because the verses in Isaiah 42 are talking about someone who was chosen for service, not salvation.

1 Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations.

2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

4 he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.

Hello InTheLight,

Not really. But I do thank you for disagreeing. This gives me cause to post the rest of the chapter..

Please notice the particular

Isa 42...

1 But now, this is what the LORD says—
he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
3 For I am the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush[a] and Seba in your stead.

notice HE GAVE EGYPT FOR YOUR RAMSOM.

This is saying He KILLED Egyptians. He...that is GOD killed Egyptians. Why?????

The next verse tells us....

4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight,
and because I love you,
God KILLED Egyptians, he killed CUSHITes,,,,,,He Killed Sedaits....BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS PEOPLE.

Please notice the rest of verse 4...

I will give people in exchange for you,
nations in exchange for your life.

WHAT???? God will give up people....will exchange people for the ones he loves???

But God loves everyone the same way....right??


Now notice the great divide of people...

5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
I will bring your children from the east
and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”

NOTICE...this is GOD gathering HIS people. The ones he made for his glory. Its not all of mankind here. Just his people.

NOW the rest of mankind..
The dead....the blind....the deaf

8 Lead out those who have eyes but are blind,
who have ears but are deaf.
9 All the nations gather together
and the peoples assemble.
Which of their gods foretold this
and proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”


So you have two groups. You have Gods people and you have the blind, and deaf.


Then God says to his people...


10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.




******



I am so thankful God loves me. Are you thankful he choose you in love?

 

[Tom Butler]

The apostle John, in his second letter makes a specific reference to an elect individual.

2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2 John 1:13 The children of your elect sister greet you. Amen.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello InTheLight,

Not really. But I do thank you for disagreeing. This gives me cause to post the rest of the chapter..

Please notice the particular

Isa 42...

1 But now, this is what the LORD says—
he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
3 For I am the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush[a] and Seba in your stead.

notice HE GAVE EGYPT FOR YOUR RAMSOM.

This is saying He KILLED Egyptians. He...that is GOD killed Egyptians. Why?????

The next verse tells us....

4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight,
and because I love you,
God KILLED Egyptians, he killed CUSHITes,,,,,,He Killed Sedaits....BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS PEOPLE.

Please notice the rest of verse 4...

I will give people in exchange for you,
nations in exchange for your life.

WHAT???? God will give up people....will exchange people for the ones he loves???

But God loves everyone the same way....right??


Now notice the great divide of people...

5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
I will bring your children from the east
and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”

NOTICE...this is GOD gathering HIS people. The ones he made for his glory. Its not all of mankind here. Just his people.

NOW the rest of mankind..
The dead....the blind....the deaf

8 Lead out those who have eyes but are blind,
who have ears but are deaf.
9 All the nations gather together
and the peoples assemble.
Which of their gods foretold this
and proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”


So you have two groups. You have Gods people and you have the blind, and deaf.


Then God says to his people...


10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.




******



I am so thankful God loves me. Are you thankful he choose you in love?

Yes.....good post...add in Isa49...and the picture gets painted of The elect Servant,and His people in saving covenant union In Him.

These false ideas,chosen only to service,chosen corporately,are just irrational resisting of the truth...enjoy your solid posts brother..

 

[InTheLight]

Hello InTheLight,

Not really. But I do thank you for disagreeing. This gives me cause to post the rest of the chapter..

Please notice the particular

Isa 42...

Actually it's Isa. 43. And please note the OP's thread title: "Does the NEW TESTAMENT TEACH....?" So why answer with an Old Testament passage?

NOTICE...this is GOD gathering HIS people. The ones he made for his glory. Its not all of mankind here. Just his people.

Yes, his corporately chosen people, the nation of Israel. By applying this chapter to saved Gentiles of the present day you are twisting scripture in a mighty way to fit your theology.

 

[webdog]

[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30 ESV)

One may disagree regarding the mechanics of election, but individuals are clearly in mind.

Yes...but not for salvation. This is talking about sanctification, being conformed to Christ's image.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Some hold that it is the Plan of God that was/is Elected, that the Plan to put those of faith in jesus into Church and than start the predestination process
others that the NT teaches us individual election, that saints were elected, not the plan itself

is it either /or, or could both be somehow true?

I believe that before the foundation of the world God chose his elect and reprobated the reprobates.

 

[InTheLight]

Yes...but not for salvation. This is talking about sanctification, being conformed to Christ's image.

Well, sure, but if you change these words,

"whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son"

to these words,

"whom he foreknew he also predestined to be elected by grace to salvation"

you can get a whole new interpretation of this verse!

 

[StefanM]

Yes...but not for salvation. This is talking about sanctification, being conformed to Christ's image.

The concept of sanctification is included in verse 29, but verse 30 also explicitly refers to glorification and justification.

[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30 ESV)

Using the outline of verse 30:

Predestination----->Calling---->Justification----->Glorification

Predestination is directly linked to calling, which is directly linked to justification.

 

[StefanM]

Well, sure, but if you change these words,

"whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son"

to these words,

"whom he foreknew he also predestined to be elected by grace to salvation"

you can get a whole new interpretation of this verse!

You don't need a new interpretation. You have verse 30:

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[webdog]

The concept of sanctification is included in verse 29, but verse 30 also explicitly refers to glorification and justification.

[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30 ESV)

Using the outline of verse 30:

Predestination----->Calling---->Justification----->Glorification

Predestination is directly linked to calling, which is directly linked to justification.

You cannot interpret verse 29 through verse 30. Verse 30 is a continuation of "those" in 29, which are believers being molded in Christ's image. The predestined in verse 30 (believers) again are not to salvation. Believers have been called, justified and eventually glorified.

 

[StefanM]

You cannot interpret verse 29 through verse 30. Verse 30 is a continuation of "those" in 29, which are believers being molded in Christ's image. The predestined in verse 30 (believers) again are not to salvation. Believers have been called, justified and eventually glorified.

Actually, you not only can do just that; you should. Verse 30 is the culmination of his discussion in verse 29.

Regardless, verse 30 taken alone is enough to seal the argument. Believers are not called and justified. Nonbelievers are called. Belief/faith is the means through which one is justified.

One is not called because of one's faith. Such a scenario would make calling contingent on justification, which is opposite of Paul's trajectory here.

 

[webdog]

Actually, you not only can do just that; you should. Verse 30 is the culmination of his discussion in verse 29.

Regardless, verse 30 taken alone is enough to seal the argument. Believers are not called and justified. Nonbelievers are called. Belief/faith is the means through which one is justified.

One is not called because of one's faith. Such a scenario would make calling contingent on justification, which is opposite of Paul's trajectory here.

Believers have not been called and justified?! How else could they have been believers? One is called to faith, what the text supports, not because of one's faith.

 

[webdog]

Actually, you not only can do just that; you should. Verse 30 is the culmination of his discussion in verse 29.

Regardless, verse 30 taken alone is enough to seal the argument. Believers are not called and justified. Nonbelievers are called. Belief/faith is the means through which one is justified.

One is not called because of one's faith. Such a scenario would make calling contingent on justification, which is opposite of Paul's trajectory here.

not called because of ones faith but to faith. If believers have not been called and justified how did the become believers?!

 

[Iconoclast]

not called because of ones faith but to faith. If believers have not been called and justified how did the become believers?!

Here is how.....

Acts 13:48 (King James Version)

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

it does not say as many as believed were ordained to eternal life. it says;
and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed:thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Seeing that this thread is swinging towards foreknowledge/foreordainment, here is a verse to chew on:

1 Cor. 1: 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

See how this is worded? The Gospel is God's way to save those that believe. So, right here is a prime example of God's foreknowledge at work, fellas.