Is Hyper Calvinism Regarded As being Non Biblical, As A False Gospel?

[kyredneck]

....ALL who are lost are lost ...

....and while you're at it, show from scripture that 'lost' is synonymous with burning in hell for all eternity.

 

[JesusFan]

Again, show from scripture that 'being saved' is synonymous with 'going to heaven'.

Bible states throughout it that unless a person is "Born again" that he will not even to be able to enter into Kingdom of heaven...
Once saved, born again, regenerated by the Holy Spirit..
that person has a new nature, indwelt by Holy Spirit, and will be going to heaven, as "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"...

Just curious, how can a person become saved/born again and NOT be going to heaven, because that would mean God has chosen them to be one of his elected unto Eternal life in Christ?

 

[kyredneck]

Bible states throughout it that unless a person is "Born again" that he will not being able to enter into Kingdom of heaven...
Once saved, born again, regenerated byt eh Holy Spirit..
that person has a new nature, indwelt by Holy Spirit, and will be going to heaven, as "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"...

Show me sozo in that passage you're referring to.

 

[JesusFan]

Show me sozo in that passage you're referring to.

think that would be the Apostles John and Paul, are you disputing those inspired by Holy Spirit me wrote?

 

[freeatlast]

Show me sozo in that passage you're referring to.

Are you saying a person can be saved and NOT go to heaven?

 

[kyredneck]

think that would be the Apostles John and Paul, are you disputing those inspired by Holy Spirit me wrote?

From #34:

"Are you using the word 'saved' as synonymous with 'going to heaven'? If so, please show that premise to be true from scripture. Where do you see sōzō used in the eternal sense in context with belief of the gospel?"

I'm not questioning whether or not one is saved (sozo) by hearing and believing the gospel. Most routinely, without any thought if it's correct or not, throw 'saved and lost' around to mean 'heaven bound or hell bound'. Show it to be so from scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

From #34:

"Are you using the word 'saved' as synonymous with 'going to heaven'? If so, please show that premise to be true from scripture. Where do you see sōzō used in the eternal sense in context with belief of the gospel?"

I'm not questioning whether or not one is saved (sozo) by hearing and believing the gospel. Most routinely, without any thought if it's correct or not, throw 'saved and lost' around to mean 'heaven bound or hell bound'. Show it to be so from scripture.

A saved person would mean their sins have been forgiven fully by God , thru the Cross of Christ, by His death and resurrection...
that person HAS to go to heaven, as they are seen by God to be united with His Son...
A lost person is one who still has his debt burden before God to atone for, so he will be judged and condemned to hell... he will in a sense to be paying for his own sins...

 

[The Archangel]

Crabtownboy,

Though we don't always agree theologically, I have always enjoyed reading your posts. I think they ask good questions and bring much maturity to bear in these conversations.

So, I hope you don't mind if I address you and some of the questions you've asked (which, again, are great questions) and then ask, perhaps, a question or two myself.

I disagree with you Rippon. The Calvinists on this BB have convinced me they are wrong. From their own words I cannot see how they can ever feel they themselves are saved ... much less anyone else.

Our "feeling" that we are saved is, I would argue, the same as the non-Calvinist--we look at ourselves and see how we conform to Scripture. But, I don't mean that in an "are we Calvinists" way. No, what I mean is this: After our conversion, can we honestly look at ourselves, at our lives, and see the work of the Holy Spirit as our thoughts, attitudes, and actions change to become more Christlike? Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike should be looking for and striving for that transformation.

So, we look to see if the twin "fruits" of repentance and faith are present in our lives.

Additionally, as they have sparked my interest, I have been doing a bit of reading on the life of Calvin. I do not see how a person with such a flawed character can be seen as a model of Christian witness ... and also I cannot see how his beliefs can be viewed as valid seeing as how he turn God into an evil spirit responsible for all the evil in the world ... for his own glory. This simply makes no sense logically, theologically, philosophically or otherwise.

I hope you are right. I do not see his living his life on a high plane. If he were alive today and committed the same deeds as were preformed in Geneva he would be viewed as an evil person IMHO.

Calvin was, by no means, a perfect man. He was as flawed as I am or as you are--only a sinner saved by grace. This is why I do not like the label "Calvinist." I do not follow Calvin (nor do any other Calvinists I know). What we follow is his exegesis of the text of Scripture. Of course some things may be wrong in that exegesis--like paedobaptism. But, we (Calvinists) as a general rule, look to his writings as a window into Scripture, all the time comparing his words and the words and the meaning of the text. (By the way, I'm not sure if I own any of his works, so I certainly do not have a shrine to him!).

Also, remember: The world in which Calvin lived was vastly different (for the worse) than the world we live in. In his time, there was almost no distinction made between the church and the state. Like most of us are today, Calvin was a product of his time. Does that make him always right? Of course not. But, it doesn't make him as wrong either. We tend always to view history anachronistically--through today's eyes. This is neither fair nor proper.

I did not hold these views until the Calvinists here convinced me of their and Calvin's errors. Being able to quote scripture in support of one's personal beliefs does not automatically make those beliefs correct. (Emphasis mine)

Very true words, friend. They do apply to both sides of the debate.

I say Calvinist turn God into an evil monster when they say he preordained every evil deed, all wife beatings, all child abuse, all murders, all rapes, etc. and that he did it so we could see his grace and glory. These are not my words, nor words from books but from entries in several other threads. If those who made these statements are right about Calvin's theology, then yes, he turned God into the root of all evil ... and I reject that idea. Those are major reasons Calvinist here convinced me they are wrong. My hope is that these folk have a misunderstood what Calvin was teaching.

Here's my question: If all these evil things were not, in some way, ordained by God, what, then, if anything, was or is the purpose of these things?

Now, I DO NOT believe that God is the author of evil. However, I do believe what the Bible says and I summarize that as such: God foreordains the free actions of human beings--including the free and sinful actions--to serve His purposes and display His glory.

If we deny purpose in these evil things, are we not saying that "God is just as surprised as we are?" Are we not going down the road to Open Theism at that point?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[kyredneck]

A saved person would mean their sins have been forgiven fully by God , thru the Cross of Christ, by His death and resurrection...
that person HAS to go to heaven, as they are seen by God to be united with His Son...
A lost person is one who still has his debt burden before God to atone for, so he will be judged and condemned to hell... he will in a sense to be paying for his own sins...

If you're not going to provide scripture, I will:

For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God`s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. 1 Cor 1:21

Show me saved to be used here to mean regenerated, born of the Spirit, bound for heaven, the aquisition of eternal life. Show me how sozo here is used in the eternal sense.

 

[kyredneck]

So what's up here? Some are judged by others as being hyper Calvinists on THE basis of the utilization of the gospel; yet no one on board can show me from scripture that the gospel does what most say it does (impart eternal life)?

 

[JesusFan]

If you're not going to provide scripture, I will:

For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God`s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. 1 Cor 1:21

Show me saved to be used here to mean regenerated, born of the Spirit, bound for heaven, the aquisition of eternal life. Show me how sozo here is used in the eternal sense.

Are you saying that someone saved can also be NOT going to Heaven?
That the new Birth/saved/regenerated etc are NOT saying same things?
Just HOW would a person get to heaven if not experiencing new birth/regenerated etc?

 

[kyredneck]

Are you saying that someone saved can also be NOT going to Heaven?
That the new Birth/saved/regenerated etc are NOT saying same things?
Just HOW would a person get to heaven if not experiencing new birth/regenerated etc?

I'm saying that only those born from above can be 'saved'. The two are not the same. You, and probably most others, believe the two are the same (but you can't show it to be so from scripture). It is because the Old Baptists make a distinction between eternal and gospel salvation that they are generally considered to be 'hyper'.

[edit] Most Old Baptists consider those that believe in 'hard determinism' to be the 'hyper' ones.

 

[freeatlast]

I'm saying that only those born from above can be 'saved'. The two are not the same. You, and probably most others, believe the two are the same (but you can't show it to be so from scripture). It is because the Old Baptists make a distinction between eternal and gospel salvation that they are generally considered to be 'hyper'.

So again can a person be saved and not go to heaven?

 

[kyredneck]

So again can a person be saved and not go to heaven?

All saved people go to heaven, [edit] and so do all those that are born of the Spirit.

 

[freeatlast]

All saved people go to heaven, [edit] and so do all those that are born of the Spirit.

Agreed as they are one and the same.

 

[kyredneck]

Agreed as they are one and the same.

Not.

Here 's the way it works:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Those that have first been born of the Spirit come to Christ. Regeneration first, conversion next.

 

[freeatlast]

Not.

Here 's the way it works:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Those that have first been born of the Spirit come to Christ. Regeneration first, conversion next.

That kind of thinking sort of remind me of quantum theory. Well certainly you must believe that, but I think I will pass on that kind of theology.

 

[JesusFan]

All saved people go to heaven, [edit] and so do all those that are born of the Spirit.

According to the Bible, that would be both same group...
One belongs to either Kingdom Of God, or satan..
New Birth gets one into Kingdom of God
That person IS saved from out of darkness unto the light
That person is saved,and rec Holy Spirit at moment of getting saved
Both refer to same !

 

[freeatlast]

According to the Bible, that would be both same group...
One belongs to either Kingdom Of God, or satan..
New Birth gets one into Kingdom of God
That person IS saved from out of darkness unto the light
That person is saved,and rec Holy Spirit at moment of getting saved
Both refer to same !

Absolutely! :thumbs: Just ask a 5th grader.

 

[Robert Snow]

Not.

Here 's the way it works:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Those that have first been born of the Spirit come to Christ. Regeneration first, conversion next.

Total bunk! We come to Christ, of our own free will, then we are regenerated by the Spirit of God.