Scriptures calvinists must deal with...

[Alive in Christ]

I am not a Calvinist at present. There was a time when I was sort of leaning in that direction, but the testimony of the scriptures kept me from making the final plunge. I sometimes use the term "Cal-minion" in refering to my position, because there is some truth in Calvinism.

I have had some interesting conversations with Calvinists lately, here on this board as well as away from the internet. One interaction got rather spicy when I mentioned my view..straight from the scriptures of course..that everyone who has ever lived recieves an invitation to to partake of eternal life, even if the gospel message never got to them in the normal way before they died. I believe these dear ones are not doomed, but rather will be given revelation from God, that they can discern, and will have opportunity to chose to receive eternal life, through faith alone..or to reject the offer.

Anyway, here are several scriptures that I simply can not comprehend how Calvinists can manage to misunderstand, or explain away, or force ridiculous interpretations on to them.

How can calvinists miss the clear, easilly understood messages of these passages?....

(and there are so, so many more.)

1 Tim 2:4... who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

John, 3:17...For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

Ezekiel 18:-23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

2 John 1:1...The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth--and not I only, but also all who know the truth--

Ezekiel 18:32...For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

1 Tim 4:10...(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Ezekiel 33:11...Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

Titus 2:11...For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

2 Peter 3:9...The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."


John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."


Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."

Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."

John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

And the Spirit and the Bride say come! And let him you hears, Come! and let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life, freely."

"He was not that light, but was sent to bear witness of that light. That Light was the true Light, that gives light to every man that comes into the world."

I just cant bring myself to read these clear articulate passages of scripture, and then stop and say..

Naw.

They dont mean what they clearly say. God is speaking in *code* here. He clearly says THIS...but He REALLY means THAT.

I just cant take that much liberty in interpration. The testimony of the scriptures is just so important. They are THE STANDARD that God has given us.


AiC

 

[Grasshopper]

Read any Reformed Theologian and they deal with all this verses.

What is your definition of propitiation.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Read any Reformed Theologian and they deal with all this verses.

Never satisfactorally, in my view.

What is your definition of propitiation.

I would say that this sums it up nicely...


An atoning sacrifice that satisfies the wrath of God on behalf of those for whom it is made.

Propitiation is required by God’s character, is initiated by God’s love, is defined by substitution, is accomplished by Christ’s death, and is appropriated by faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

AIC ,

Calvinists like all the verses in the bible. They just understand them in that they know that the scriptures cannot contradict themselves. Having a view of the bible that God deals with man based on His covenant does not lead to the other understandings that are offered....lets take a look at your supposed difficulties.

1 Tim 2:4... who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Are all men going to be saved? Is thay what is being taught?Does the context suggest what men are meant by all?Does God want all men without exception to be saved?

or what does verse1 and 2,and three say?

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

The all men who they pray for, are kings and all that are in authority. That is the all the passage is speaking of.....all kinds of men in authority,,,so that believers can live a quiet and peaceable life. Do you see this AIC?

next;

John, 3:17...For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

great verse....first question;
Is the whole world going to be saved? Or being that Jesus comes to the covenant nation Israel...does this indicate that salvation is soon to go worldwide[not Israel only]? The unbelieving world is already condemned;
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,
next;

Ezekiel 18:32...For I take no pleasure in the death of anyoneEzekiel I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,Repent and live!
Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

These verses are fine....All men everywhere are commanded to repent.Here in Ezk. covenant breaking Israel was being addressed.
next:

1 Tim 4:10...(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

are all men going to be saved? Jesus is the only Saviour given among men...there is no other. acts4:12
next:

Titus 2:11...For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

It has been going worldwide...you have your own strange idea that everyone everywhere gets some kind of mystical opportunity to believe;

that everyone who has ever lived recieves an invitation to to partake of eternal life, even if the gospel message never got to them in the normal way before they died. I believe these dear ones are not doomed, but rather will be given revelation from God, that they can discern, and will have opportunity to chose to receive eternal life, through faith alone..or to reject the offer.

You and you alone claim this false idea comes from scripture. But honestly we know it is your own emotional and contra biblical idea that puts this forth.
It is a flat denial of the wrath of God being revealed.
next:

2 Peter 3:9...The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

You and others in here violently twist this out of context....it is speaking of God saving all the elect. lets look at a real translation:
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
to -usward....the beloved read the whole chapter.
QUOTE]

Do you get the idea AIC, read the whole chapter...like hebrews 2:9-16...it describes the everyman,as the sanctified children the Father gives to Jesus, the seed of Abraham.....do it with all your verses..it is not difficult...you can do it.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Calvinists like all the verses in the bible. They just understand them in that they know that the scriptures cannot contradict themselves.

Actually, thats one of the problems with Calvinism. The contradictions.

example: "God is a God of love, and He wants all to be saved...but has he already damned millons to hell, or..almost as bad...He allows them to live in places that He Himself know will be out of reach of the missionries for hundreds and hundreds of years!


(this is going back to our previous conversations in the other thread of course)


I dont believe that nonsense for 1 second. My God is powerfull, and all knowing, and if missionaries cant get somewhere, HE will evangelize them Himself.


He will give them "light" that they can recieve or refuse, as the scriptures teach. I just cant believe that you are advocating the you and I are able to share gosple truth to someone...but Almighty God...(((CANT!))...when human witnesses are not capable of reaching them.

great verse....first question;
Is the whole world going to be saved?

Of course not. Some will choose to reject.

Or being that Jesus comes to the covenant nation Israel...does this indicate that salvation is soon to go worldwide[not Israel only]?

Gods desire of course was "to the jews 1st, then the gentiles)

The unbelieving world is already condemned
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

Of course. The unbelievers, those who reject Christ.
next;

Ezekiel 18:32...For I take no pleasure in the death of anyoneEzekiel I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,Repent and live!
Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Agreed.

"are all men going to be saved? Jesus is the only Saviour given among men...there is no other. acts4:12

All are not going to be saved. But not because God chooses certain "preferred ones", while condemning those He doesnt prefer.

God *could* do that if He wanted to. But the scriptures make clear that He DOES NOT operate that way.

It has been going worldwide...you have your own strange idea that everyone everywhere gets some kind of mystical opportunity to believe;

When did I say "everyone". Please refrain from giving false witness. ONLY those who, through no fault of their own, never encountered a christian witness.

Regarding my *actual* point, I just cant believe that you actually believe that God Almighty, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are impotent, and are unable to share the THE GOSPEL with people who cant be reached by human witnesses?!?!


Iconoclast...

Calvinists like all the verses in the bible. They just understand them in that they know that the scriptures cannot contradict themselves.

Thats one of the problems with Calvinism. The contradictions.

example: "God is a God of love, and He wants all to be saved...but has he already damned millons to hell, or..almost as bad...He allows then to live in places that He Himself know will be out of reach of the missionries for hundreds and hundreds of years!

(this is going back to our previous conversations in the other thread of course)


I dont believe that nonsense for 1 second. My God is powerfull, and all knowing, and if missionaries cant get somewhere, HE will evangelize them Himself. He will give them "light" that they can recieve or refuse, as the scriptures teach. I just cant believe that you are advocating the you and I are able to share gosple truth to someone...but Almighty God...(((CANT!))...when human witnesses are not capable of reaching them.

great verse....first question;
Is the whole world going to be saved?

Of course not. Some will choose to reject.

Or being that Jesus comes to the covenant nation Israel...does this indicate that salvation is soon to go worldwide[not Israel only]?

Gods desire of course was "to the jews 1st, then the gentiles

The unbelieving world is already condemned
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

Of course. The unbelievers, those who reject Christ.
next;

Ezekiel 18:32...For I take no pleasure in the death of anyoneEzekiel I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,Repent and live!
Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?[\quote]

Agreed.

"are all men going to be saved? Jesus is the only Saviour given among men...there is no other. acts4:12

All are not going to be saved. But not because God chooses certain "preferred ones", while condemning those condemning the others.
God *could* do that if He wanted to. But the scriptures make clear that He DOES NOT operate that way.

next:

It has been going worldwide...you have your own strange idea that everyone everywhere gets some kind of mystical opportunity to believe;

When did I say "everyone". Please refrain from giving false witness. ONLY those who, through no fault of their own, never encountered a christian witness.


Regarding my *actual* point, I just cant believe that you actually believe that God Almighty, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are impotent, and are unable to share the THE GOSPEL with people who cant be reached by human witnesses?!?!

When the scripture clearly teaches that God gives "light" to every human being who comes into the world.

I'm sure glad I'm not the one saying that.

You and others in here violently twist this out of context....it is speaking of God saving all the elect. lets look at a real translation:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

to -usward....the beloved, read the whole chapter.

Yes, all who choose to embrace the gosple, and place their faith in Christ, will be saved and will not perish. Those who refuse, will recieve what they chose...to be lost.

AiC

 

[Luke2427]

I am not a Calvinist at present. There was a time when I was sort of leaning in that direction, but the testimony of the scriptures kept me from making the final plunge. I sometimes use the term "Cal-minion" in refering to my position, because there is some truth in Calvinism.

I have had some interesting conversations with Calvinists lately, here on this board as well as away from the internet. One interaction got rather spicy when I mentioned my view..straight from the scriptures of course..that everyone who has ever lived recieves an invitation to to partake of eternal life, even if the gospel message never got to them in the normal way before they died. I believe these dear ones are not doomed, but rather will be given revelation from God, that they can discern, and will have opportunity to chose to receive eternal life, through faith alone..or to reject the offer.

Anyway, here are several scriptures that I simply can not comprehend how Calvinists can manage to misunderstand, or explain away, or force ridiculous interpretations on to them.

How can calvinists miss the clear, easilly understood messages of these passages?....

(and there are so, so many more.)




I just cant bring myself to read these clear articulate passages of scripture, and then stop and say..

Naw.

They dont mean what they clearly say. God is speaking in *code* here. He clearly says THIS...but He REALLY means THAT.

I just cant take that much liberty in interpration. The testimony of the scriptures is just so important. They are THE STANDARD that God has given us.


AiC

You seem very sincere and I appreciate that.

We say "all" all of the time when we do not actually mean "all".

No we don't. We don't say "all" "ALL" of the time. Some times we don't say anything. Other times we say things besides "all"

The whole WORLD does this.

No it doesn't. The whole WORLD includes millions of people who NEVER speak at all. Many of them die before they can speak. Many of them are in comas and many of them are dumb and many of them are too young to speak at all.

So we are all the time assuming that all means all and that is all that all means.

No we are not. We are not ALL of the time assuming this. Most of the time we are not assuming ANYTHING. Much of the time that we are assuming some things we are most certainly NOT assuming this.

The whole WORLD makes these assumptions. No it doesn't...

Do you see my point?


This is essential to you getting this.

All almost NEVER means ALL in any book or in ANY context. It almost NEVER refers to each and every one. Almost NEVER.

"Whole world" almost never EVER refers to every single person in the world.

God speaks in his word using our language and he does it the same way we do it so that we can fully understand what he is saying.

It is not deep thinking to conclude that "all" MUST mean every single person. Even in the Bible "all" rarely means every single person.

If you are going to get the truth here on these things you are going to have to recognize that.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke...

We say "all" all of the time when we do not actually mean "all".

No we don't. We don't say "all" "ALL" of the time. Some times we don't say anything. Other times we say things besides "all"

The whole WORLD does this.

No it doesn't. The whole WORLD includes millions of people who NEVER speak at all. Many of them die before they can speak. Many of them are in comas and many of them are dumb and many of them are too young to speak at all.

So we are all the time assuming that all means all and that is all that all means.

No we are not. We are not ALL of the time assuming this. Most of the time we are not assuming ANYTHING. Much of the time that we are assuming some things we are most certainly NOT assuming this.

The whole WORLD makes these assumptions. No it doesn't...

Do you see my point?


This is essential to you getting this.

All almost NEVER means ALL in any book or in ANY context. It almost NEVER refers to each and every one. Almost NEVER.

"Whole world" almost never EVER refers to every single person in the world.

God speaks in his word using our language and he does it the same way we do it so that we can fully understand what he is saying.

It is not deep thinking to conclude that "all" MUST mean every single person. Even in the Bible "all" rarely means every single person.

If you are going to get the truth here on these things you are going to have to recognize that.

Hi, Luke.

I understand the point you are making. And yes, words do have shades of meaning, and sometimes more that one usage.

But we are talking about the scriptures here. And for literally thousands of years now translaters have painstakingly and meticulously bent over backwords to get "precisely" the right word for every "jot and tittle" of the scriptures.

I personally am inclined to continue to trust that when I read the scriptures penned by God, I am going to believe every word of it as written.

And I say this kindly, and respectfully....I'm not sure that the best way to defend a scriptural position is to is to imply that certain words in the scriptures just dont really mean anything! :laugh:

I'M sure not going to go there!

(((Edit.))) I guess what I am saying is that I believe in the "plenary" interpretation of the scriptures. Meaning that EVERY WORD in the original is inspired. As opposed to just the general *ideas* are inspired.

AiC

 

[David Lamb]

Anyway, here are several scriptures that I simply can not comprehend how Calvinists can manage to misunderstand, or explain away, or force ridiculous interpretations on to them.

How can calvinists miss the clear, easilly understood messages of these passages?....

(and there are so, so many more.)

But it could equally be said:

Anyway, here are several scriptures that I simply can not comprehend how non-Calvinists can manage to misunderstand, or explain away, or force ridiculous interpretations on to them.

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." (Joh 10:26)
​

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (Joh 6:44)

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (Eph 2:4-5 )

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

​

How can non-calvinists miss the clear, easilly understood messages of these passages?....

(and there are so, so many more.)
​

Calvinists understand the passages you quoted differently to non-calvinists, and non-calvinists understand passages like those I quoted differently to calvinists. But, praise God! both believe that Jesus Christ and His completed work on Calvary's cross is the only way that sinners could be accepted by a perfectly holy God.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke...





Hi, Luke.

I understand the point you are making. And yes, words do have shades of meaning, and sometimes more that one usage.

But we are talking about the scriptures here. And for literally thousands of years now translaters have painstakingly and meticulously bent over backwords to get "precisely" the right word for every "jot and tittle" of the scriptures.

I personally am inclined to continue to trust that when I read the scriptures penned by God, I am going to believe every word of it as written.

And I say this kindly, and respectfully....I'm not sure that the best way to defend a scriptural position is to is to imply that certain words in the scriptures just dont really mean anything! :laugh:

I'M sure not going to go there!

(((Edit.))) I guess what I am saying is that I believe in the "plenary" interpretation of the scriptures. Meaning that EVERY WORD in the original is inspired. As opposed to just the general *ideas* are inspired.

AiC

Respectfully AIC you are forcing your meaning on those words which almost NEVER mean every single person.

God chose the words "all" and "whole world" BECAUSE of the normal usage of those words. The normal usage of those words is most certainly NOT every single person.

To say that God meant "every single person" when he said "all" or "whole word" is to force your view on the Word of God.

The NATURAL reading of the text does NOT lend itself to every single person.

You must FORCE that definition where it does not naturally go.

God speaks OUR language in his word.

"All" and "whole world" in NO language- Greek, Hebrew, English, etc...- usually means every single person in the world.

Dozens of news reports said of the tsunami something to the effect of "The whole world is moved over this catastrophe."

Whole world almost NEVER means every single person.

It is not right for you to try to force it to mean that.

Inspired scripture uses words AS WE USE THEM. Nothing about inspiration means that words are suddenly to be used in UNUSUAL ways.


God bless.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trusrt in His Son

1 Corinthians 7:12
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

When men see world and all it is only what they see and know, when God say's all and world He is taking about all He sees and knows.

Does that means He fails, not at all, because those who He wills will be saved those who trust in His Son.

Paul learns to me how men in his day's was misunderstanding his words.

So He does make it plain and simple.

We are to make peace with everyone. Why, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Then he goes on to say that he is not lying. That tells me that people didn't believe him back then either.

 

[annsni]

My God is powerfull, and all knowing, and if missionaries cant get somewhere, HE will evangelize them Himself.


He will give them "light" that they can recieve or refuse, as the scriptures teach. I just cant believe that you are advocating the you and I are able to share gosple truth to someone...but Almighty God...(((CANT!))...when human witnesses are not capable of reaching them.

See, but the problem is that you say that God is all powerful and He wants all to be saved but they are not so that means that man is more powerful than God when it comes to salvation. Man's will trumps God's will. I do not see that in the Bible at all.

 

[Grasshopper]

An atoning sacrifice that satisfies the wrath of God on behalf of those for whom it is made.

Propitiation is required by God’s character, is initiated by God’s love, is defined by substitution, is accomplished by Christ’s death, and is appropriated by faith.

Then if you were consistent you would be a universalist.

John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."


Gods wrath against the lost man has already been satisfied.

 

[Crabtownboy]

See, but the problem is that you say that God is all powerful and He wants all to be saved but they are not so that means that man is more powerful than God when it comes to salvation. Man's will trumps God's will. I do not see that in the Bible at all.

Man is not more powerful than God ... but God does allow man the freedom of his free will to not accept him ... indeed God allows man to use his free will to reject him. This does not empower man not does it weaken God.

 

[Grasshopper]

example: "God is a God of love, and He wants all to be saved...but has he
Actually, thats one of the problems with Calvinism. The contradictions. already damned millons to hell, or..almost as bad...He allows them to live in places that He Himself know will be out of reach of the missionries for hundreds and hundreds of years!


(this is going back to our previous conversations in the other thread of course)


I dont believe that nonsense for 1 second. My God is powerfull, and all knowing, and if missionaries cant get somewhere, HE will evangelize them Himself.

You sound like a hyper-Calvinist. Missions: take it or leave it.

Do you have any scriptural evidence for this theory or is it just something that makes you feel better about God?

Curious as to why you have an Alpha and Omega Ministries signature at the bottom of your posts.

 

[annsni]

Man is not more powerful than God ... but God does allow man the freedom of his free will to not accept him ... indeed God allows man to use his free will to reject him. This does not empower man not does it weaken God.

But if God desires that all be saved, then His desire is not fulfulled, is it?

 

[webdog]

"Whole world" almost never EVER refers to every single person in the world.

Prove this from John's usage of the phrase "whole world" in all of his letters and tell us who "whole world" is in reference to if it is not all of sinful mankind.

 

[webdog]

Then if you were consistent you would be a universalist.

John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."


Gods wrath against the lost man has already been satisfied.

Mankind can NEVER appease God's wrath against sin even by spending the rest of eternity in Hell!! Your view leaves God eternally unpaid for a crime committed against Him.

 

[webdog]

But if God desires that all be saved, then His desire is not fulfulled, is it?

Where does desire = decree? If you are consistent and this is your view, He also doesn't desire sin...yet there is sin.

 

[webdog]

See, but the problem is that you say that God is all powerful and He wants all to be saved but they are not so that means that man is more powerful than God when it comes to salvation. Man's will trumps God's will. I do not see that in the Bible at all.

How is your view exempt? He wants no part of sin, yet sin exists, so that means man is more powerful than God when it comes to sin.

You see the problem when we start plugging in our linear understanding into such a complex matter?

 

[annsni]

How is your view exempt? He wants no part of sin, yet sin exists, so that means man is more powerful than God when it comes to sin.

You see the problem when we start plugging in our linear understanding into such a complex matter?

However, I see that God's desire that all be sin has to be trumped by something since not everyone is saved. So it's either that man's will is more important than God's will or else God has something even greater than his desire to see all men saved.

So yes, something is more powerful than God's desire to see all men saved. The doctrine of grace says it's God, the doctrine of free will says it's man.