humblethinker
Active Member
I made a video of a monologue between God and man. I would be interested in getting the BB's feedback.
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Calvinist God: “You may choose between (a) or (a), and you're free to choose whichever is most compatible and consistent with your nature, but you're not free to abstain from choosing, and the choice that you make, will ultimately be YOUR choice. So what's your choice?”
Person: “I guess I choose (a).”
C God: “Great. Now I will reveal the gracious gift or perhaps, just punishment for choosing (a).”
This would never happen. The unsaved choose their sin and know exactly what it is.Person: “Whoa…wait...what?”
C God: “You made your choice! YOU chose it out of your own free agency!”
Person: “Wait! All I had was choice (a). What other choice COULD I make?”
1) Since I am not sure I am thinking about the same thing you are, and since you say the choice is very known, can you tell me what the choice is between then?I read your last post, so I'll answer. Here lies the problem. You act as if the choices are behind a door and unknown. That's not true. The choice is very known.
It seems that Cals would say that God does not ever give man the ability to choose to believe in Him while simultaneously making available the contrary choice of not believing in Him. Would you say that God does make those options available? If He does, then does God enable man to choose either? I'm not making an accusation, I'm just seeking clarification.You were correct that we are able to choose that which is consistent with our nature.
Ok, I have no problem with that... (although we might disagree on the more precise meaning of that statement.)No one outside of the grace of God will ever choose God.
Ok... Your answer to question 1) and 2) will inform my understanding of your statement here.Hey will choose exactly what he wants to choose and that's not God but his own self.
Are you saying this would never happen because the unsaved would at some point in their life have the God given opportunity to choose (a) or (b), that it would never be (a) or (a)? But that, regardless of either scenario man would choose (a)?This would never happen. The unsaved choose their sin and know exactly what it is.
I don't mean to caricature or create a strawman. I'm interested in hearing why this dialogue is not representative of Calvinism's treatment of choice/free will.
I guess because in the Calvinist's model of salvation, one does not have a choice. God spurs them out of the shoot, runs up from behind them, hogties them, and gives them salvation!! J/K my DoG Brethern.
I guess the reason why this isn't accurate is because, in the Calvinist's model, free will doesn't exist. They are effectually called by God, and will not resist, henceforth, they had no other "choice", but to come to Him and be saved!! Or at least this is what I have gleaned from my DoG Brethern.
and will not resist,
henceforth, they had no other "choice",
This is where non cals go off....they say the prodigal just figured it out,all by himself....and he 'accepted Jesus" He believed.....
In the day of Noah.....Noah did not keep the ungodly out of the Ark.....they did not will to go in it.
I don't think this is accurate. Does anyone on this board think that the prodigal figured it out by himself? Does anyone think that they by themselves 'figured it out'? You seem to propose a false dilemma wherein there are no possible options except for the ones you allow in the construct of your claim.
I don't know what Calvinists you're talking to, but Calvinists are true to the Scriptures. God has placed before men life and death. A man in his natural state will always choose death, because that is what he loves, and a man born of God will always choose life, because that is what he loves.I don't mean to caricature or create a strawman. I'm interested in hearing why this dialogue is not representative of Calvinism's treatment of choice/free will.
I don't know what Calvinists you're talking to, but Calvinists are true to the Scriptures. God has placed before men life and death. A man in his natural state will always choose death, because that is what he loves, and a man born of God will always choose life, because that is what he loves.
Iconoclast said;
I would like to know where you got this little tidbit of information. How do you know what happened? For all we know, perhaps hundreds of people Noah had preached to realized his prophecy was coming true and ran to the ark. There might have been hundreds, if not thousands beating on the ark trying to get in.
I would like to know where you got this little tidbit of information. How do you know what happened?
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually
11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
For all we know, perhaps hundreds of people Noah had preached to realized his prophecy was coming true and ran to the ark.
That is a contradiction. Unless man truly has the freedom to choose between at least two available options, he has no choice. That is the point of the video, and it is correct.
Someone here said they can choose to fly. That is false, we are not able to fly of ourselves, it is not an available option. You may want to fly, but you cannot choose to fly. Only if you have the ability to fly can you choose to fly or not.
I don't think this is accurate. Does anyone on this board think that the prodigal figured it out by himself? Does anyone think that they by themselves 'figured it out'? You seem to propose a false dilemma wherein there are no possible options except for the ones you allow in the construct of your claim.
You just make things up. The fact that life and death is placed before a man does not presume any kind of freedom of choice. A man will reveal his nature by his choice, and men love death.
God has placed before men a and b, but men of one nature will choose a, and men of another nature will choose b.
You may place a mudhole and a bucket of pearls before a pig, and the pig will always choose the mudhole. A dog will always return to its vomit.
These extraneous "dialogues" and "analogies" that you all come up with are just a bunch hooey. God has already given us analogies. He uses such similies and metaphors as sheep and goats, serpents and doves, bread and wine, dogs and swine, marriage and birth, etc.
Now, come up with a reasonable analogy using any of those, and you'll find you cannot refute the assertions of Calvinism.
What I am always amazed at is how very intelligent, otherwise rational people can believe such obvious contradictions as truth.
But nowhere in the scriptures does it ever remotely teach a man has to be supernaturally regenerated to believe. You cannot show even one verse of scripture to support that.
Today 03:53 PM
Winman,
You do not see it, does not translate to.....obvious contradictions.
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
looks supernatural here!
Believeing and being born again are not the same. Believeing is man's part in salvation, being regenerated or born again is God's part.
Jn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when THE DEAD SHALL HEAR the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear SHALL live.
Jesus knows correct doctrine. He did not say the living shall hear his voice, he said THE DEAD SHALL HEAR.
Why can't you understand that? If Jesus wanted to say the living he could have said so. No, Jesus said exactly what he wanted to say, and he said the DEAD SHALL HEAR. So, obviously the dead can hear Jesus.
If the spiritually dead cannot hear Jesus, then how is he going to call them out of their graves? Are you going to argue that Jesus makes the spiritually dead spiritually alive so they can hear him? That is utter nonsense.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the grave shall HEAR his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Again, Jesus here shows the spiritually DEAD can HEAR (and come forth)!!
Believeing is man's part in salvation, being regenerated or born again is God's part