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My Position on the Fourth Commandment

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, May 14, 2011.

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  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Obvously you are incapable of counting! If Sunday was the third day since he was crucified, then Sunday MUST be included as the last of the THREE days or else you have him being raised upon the second of three days.


    “If Sunday is the "third day since" he was crucified and he was walking with them that very Sunday then obviously if you count backwards Morning and evenings in reverse you will end up precisely during the DAY time of Thursday PRIOR to 6 pm ...” THAT JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AND DIED! NOT BURIED!!


    Which in itself is also a ridiculous self-contradicting statement, but be that as it may, for it is an even worse attempt at counting. For if Sunday is the ‘third day since’ He was crucified and He was walking with them that very Sunday then obviously if you count backwards,

    “the First Day of the week” (Sunday) was “the third day since” He was “delivered to be crucified” and had died;[/QUOTE]


    They said "this IS the third day" not there "has" been three days since the crucifixion. Sunday was INCLUSIVE and therefore the Seventh day of the week was day number TWO and Friday was day number ONE making the crucifixion on our Thursday.

    Secondly, reverse counting must be done according to the Jewish Biblical order not the Roman order - EVENING precedes MORNING and there when they were talking they were in the middle of the THIRD DAY - morning aspect.
    [/QUOTE]
     
    #101 Dr. Walter, Jul 4, 2011
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    to day is the third day since these things were done. - Lk. 24:21

    They did not say "It has been three days since he was crucified" but they said "today IS the third day since...."

    What "IS" the third day? Answer "TODAY is"! Therefore the previous day would the the SECOND day since he was crucified and the day before would be the FIRST day since he was crucified which would necessarily make our THURSDAY between 6am to 6pm the day He was crucified and buried before 6pm on Thursday evening.

    Moreover, when they said "TODAY IS the third day" that day had not been fully completed. That day did not consist of 24 hours when they said that and yet HE ALREADY WAS RISEN prior to them saying this. Hence, there is no possible way Christ could be in the grave 3 full twenty-four days as "TODAY IS the third day."

    The rediculous idea that He arose on the DAY BEFORE the "third day" provides LESS THAN 48 hours and thus only one day and a partial day he was in the grave if he arose between 3 to 6 pm on Saturday.

    You need to go back to school and learn to count. Your counting method is IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile with their words "TODAY IS the third day."
     
    #102 Dr. Walter, Jul 5, 2011
  3. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Page one

    I quote scripture also to make scriptures agree. Dr. Walter I find Israelology helps to explain the day/days involved with Passover. Scripture shows the preparation day to be Nisan 14, and the next day, Nisan 15 is a High Holy Sabbath. Is there something that connects these two specific days together? Passover does this for us. Leviticus 23:5, "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover." Jesus lived in the "time of the Gentiles", just as we. But God has determined for Israel, when their day begins, and when it ends. The blood has to be shed in order for the Passover to be accomplished. I do believe Passover has to contain eight days, for we find this in scripture.

    Are we as smart as Pilate? John 18:39, "But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?"


    This is why I say scripture will prove itself. The specific time of Passover is shown to us, but it cannot be understood until we acknowledge the Preparation day (crucifixion) is Nisan 14 according to God's time for Israel. Passover is death to some, and life to others. It happened, as scripture can prove, just as Wednesday and Thursday were blending together.


    Leviticus 23:6-7, "And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein."


    Leviticus above, 23:5-7 tells us when Passover blood is applied. I believe Jesus' body had to be in the Tomb just at the close of Nisan 14, and the beginning of Nisan 15 in Israel's time keeping. But Jesus' blood has to be available before Passover comes. So when did Jesus die? We know it was on Nisan 14 (preparation day) and this particular year it was a Wednesday, and He died at 3pm. The blood was now available to be applied as Wednesday turns into Thursday.


    3pm Wednesday to 3pm Thursday is 24 hours. 3pm Thursday to 3pm Friday is 24 hours. 3pm Friday to 3pm Saturday (the regular Sabbath) is 24 hours. It is just as He says, i.e. three days, and three nights will be accomplished according to HIS TIME.


    On His death we know he was in Paradise, and it was at 3pm He died and was in the Heart of the earth. That means his Spirit and Soul returned to His body at 3pm on that Saturday. So He arose from the heart of the earth on the third day.


    But we must account for the Passover time, and Jesus arising in His Body, and coming forth from the Tomb. There are many who scoff at our body resurrection. We must prove a Body resurrection. By using the above Wednesday to Saturday 72 hours, we see it was Sunday when the stone was rolled away by an angel. The guards were there we are told and they fainted at the sight. The women were not there for they did not see the stone rolled away, and they did not see the guards.


    Matthew 12:40 has a double meaning, as I pointed out to Gerhard Ebersoehn in a previous post. Jesus was in the heart of the earth, but His body as in the heart of the rock of the Tomb, and His body was on the ground. He broke through the bars of Hades back into His Body on Saturday at 3pm. He emerged from the Tomb sometime after the stone was rolled away, and the guards had fainted when stone rolled away. Do the women tell a different story? I don't believe so.
     
    #103 ituttut, Jul 7, 2011
  4. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Here is your problem! You attempt to count from a positoin of speculation. Speculation because you do not know the precise year of his death because that is determined by the precise year of his birth - all of which is speculative.

    However, my approach is not speculative. Luke is a historian and he provides explicit chronological data in Luke 24 that is beyond speculation. He explicitly states that the first day of the week "IS" today when they walked together and it "IS" the third day since the crucifixion. It "IS" not the fourth day as your position and Gerard's position necessitates. End of story - period - the Seventh day of the week resurrection theory is proved wrong beyond any shadow of a doubt and all the interpretative speculation will not help that position in the least overcome the explicit and specified data furnished by Luke in Luke 24.
     
    #104 Dr. Walter, Jul 7, 2011
  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Those who take the position of Gerard or the Roman Catholic position have to first define the year of Christ's birth to determine the year of his death and then determine the meaning of "high" Sabbath to determine the day of his resurrection.

    On the other hand, the information provided by Luke in Luke 24 does not depend upon what year he was born or died or what the meaning of "high" Sabbath is or any other speculative intepretations.

    We are bluntly told that "TODAY IS" the "third" day since his crucifixion NOT THE FOURTH DAY and that "TODAY IS" the "SAME DAY" that Jesus walked with the disciples on the road to Emmaeus and that the women went early that morning to the grave.

    We are bluntly told that "TODAY IS" the "SAME DAY" which is "the first day of the week" and therefore Saturday whether you count Jewish or Roman would be the SECOND day since the crucifixion and Friday whether you count Jewish or Roman would be the first day since the crucifixion and that makes Thursday the day of the crucifixion and burial.

    We are repeatedly and bluntly told that Jesus rose again "ON THE THIRD DAY" and "TODAY IS THE THIRD DAY" and "TODAY IS" the "SAME DAY" which is "the first day of the week that the women went to the grave, Jesus walked with the disciples on the road - Can't get easier and clearer than this - Jesus arose on Sunday, the first day of the week.
     
    #105 Dr. Walter, Jul 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2011
  6. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Page 2, finish

    The two said "to day is the third day since these things were done." Since that happened, it is now the third day from when it happened. It happened on another day. I read this (since) as a verb, so the happening at a time subsequent to a reference time. The three days follow in time since it happened. If one died yesterday, it is one day since it happened.
    How can that be true? Please take another look at what you are saying here. Your premise is flawed. Do you agree Jesus the man was dead at 3pm? If so, then the 72 hours in the heart of the earth begins. Start at 3pm Thursday, and you will arrive at 3pm on Sunday? You are really saying the stone was rolled away on MONDAY.
    First, I hope you have read what scripture informs, according to when God considers being the beginning of a 24-hour day. He tells us in Genesis, and He tells His People this is the way they are to count the hours of their day. Does the World believe God, or do they know better? All that He asks of us is to BELIEVE what He says is true. If we cannot reconcile scripture, then all we have left is to believe mans version. I personally believe in what God tells me in His own words.

    Second I have never claimed to know the YEAR, but scripture does tell us the Day. Man by their determination will say they can know the Year, and in the Year they contend WEDNESDAY could not be the Day. I All I know is what He tells me, and that is seventy-two hours (no more and no less) will be attained. By using His time, and understanding that Passover involves TWO Days (ending of Old gives way to New) just as we see in Matthew 9:16-17:
    "No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. 17. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

    Jesus Christ's blood is new eberlasting blood. The Old Covenant Blood is no longer needed or accepted. But the New Blood had to come from the Old Covenant People. The Old cloth was rent; and the old bottles, that had held Old Lifeless Blood, could never come near restraining the Everlasting Power of the Blood of God. Are we not bottled in (sealed in) the Body of Christ?
     
    #106 ituttut, Jul 7, 2011
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE:

    Dr Walter, will you PLEASE stop telling me what I believe or what "my position is" for me? May I please decide that for myself.

    Let me also tell you and your pupils, that you are LYING about what I believe and what my position in TRUTH, is.

    PLEASE abstain from your subtle insults for which no one seems able to call you to account. It is annoying and nauseous the way you pull my level of thinking down to yours.

    I take exception and formally OBJECT!



     
    #107 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 7, 2011
  8. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Very well! Do you believe the first day of the week was the "third" or "Fourth" day since Jesus was crucified?

    Don't give us a running chronology just to lose us in the answer! Simply answer yes or no!
     
    #108 Dr. Walter, Jul 7, 2011
  9. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Your position and logic are based wholly upon a series of speculative interpetations. If Sunday IS the third day and that is what the text demands "TODAY is the third day" and TODAY of the context IS Sunday and therefore Sunday is the third day "since" he was crucified then Saturday is the Second day since he was crucified or else TODAY is not Sunday. Then Friday is the FIRST day since he was crucified making Thursday the day he was crucified!

    Your position requires the omission of "today" from the text and then a rationale that says that three days have already passed prior to Sunday.


     
    #109 Dr. Walter, Jul 7, 2011
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Three days NT texts

    All these Scriptures are in PERFECT AGREEMENT in every respect :


    Abib 14, Wednesday night and Thursday day = Fifth Day ....

    1A) HERE BEGINS the NIGHT and the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    wherein Jesus ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell) :–
    Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.

    1B) HERE BEGINS the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    in which Jesus was delivered and crucified :–
    Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14

    1C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    when Jesus DIED and was deserted by all :–
    Mk15:37–41; Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30


    . . . . . .
    Abib 15, Thursday night and Friday day = Sixth Day ....

    2A) HERE BEGINS the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    the day whereon Joseph WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–
    Mk15:42/Mt27:57, Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.

    2B) HERE is the NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    wherein Joseph begged the body, and according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law – undertook and prepared to bury Jesus:–
    Mk15:43–46a; Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40

    2C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    when Joseph and Nicodemus laid the body and closed the tomb; and men and women left for home :–
    Mk15:46b–47; Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42


    . . . . . . .
    Abib 16, Friday night and Saturday day = Seventh Day Sabbath....

    3A) HERE BEGINS the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    THAT JESUS WOULD RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–
    Lk23:56b

    3B) HERE is the MORNING of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    Pilate ordered a guard “for the third day” :–
    Mt27:62–66

    3C) HERE is “IN the Sabbath’s Fullness MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD :–
    Mt28:1–4.

    __________________________________________________ ___

    Abib 17, Saturday night and Sunday day = First Day ....

    4A) HERE begins the day AFTER the “three days” (fourth day of the passover season) :–
    that Jesus WOULD APPEAR on :–
    Mk16:1, “When the Sabbath was past ..... they BOUGHT ....”

    4B) HERE is the EVENING of this day,
    Jn20:1–10 Mary sees the DOOR STONE was away from the tomb (discovers tomb has been OPENED);

    4C) HERE is the NIGHT of this day,
    Lk24:1–10 “DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with their spices” and ointments go to salve the body; “they found Him NOT” (discover tomb is EMPTY);
    Mk16:2–8 “very early (before) SUN’S RISING” ––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled terrified and told NO ONE”.

    4D) Here is sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),
    Jn20:11f, Mk16:9 “Mary had had stood behind” .... saw the gardener (sunrise); “Risen, early (sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus first APPEARED to Mary ....”
    Mt28:5–10 “The angel explained to the (other) women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell .... Jesus met them” (after sunrise).
    Mt28:11–15 Guard to high priests.
    USE BIBLES OF BEFORE THE TWENTIETH CENTURY – they are not as wangled as the later ones. And compare those ancient translations with the modern ones to see the truth of the older ones!
     
    #110 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 7, 2011
  11. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Just as I thought! You cannot answer a simple yes or a simple no! You have to establish your chronology on speculative interpretations. You cannot establish this chronology until you first prove the exact year Christ was born and the exact year Christ died because the 14th of Nisan occurred upon different days in different years. You do believe Sunday is the FOURTH day from the day of burial - case closed!

    God's word demands that Sunday is "TODAY" and today "IS" the THIRD DAY not the FOURTH day from his death.


     
    #111 Dr. Walter, Jul 7, 2011
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  12. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I believe you may have me mixed up with someone else. I said we don't know the year, but scripture tells us the DAY.
    Dr. Walker we differ. I know I am right for I see you do not believe what Jesus said. He died on the preparation day, and you are disputing what He said. Scripture tells us the time of day that He died. As you refuse to believe that He was at 3pm in the heart of the earth, and his body off the Tree, and in the ground by 6pm that same day, you cannot see what Luke is saying. The majority of Christianity, as well as others believe as you. But I believe this is error, for you have contradiction with the rest of the Bible.
     
    #112 ituttut, Jul 7, 2011
  13. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    There is no dispute that the passover lamb died on Nisan 14 but Nisan 14th does not occur on the SAME DAY of the week or month EVERY YEAR with consistency. Hence, the day of the week is where your speculative problems begin. However, Luke 24 settles that problem forever.

    The "preparation day" is another speculative issue. If Christ died on the "preparation day" then it was Thursday as Luke's chronology irrefutably and clearly restricts the day of Christ's death to Thursday as he defines Sunday as "TODAY" and demands it "IS" the third day since the rulers delivered him to be crucified. - Case closed.
     
    #113 Dr. Walter, Jul 7, 2011
  14. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Why do you keep saying one has to determine the YEAR? It is not speculation that we know Jesus was not born in December. We do know, that He was born in the latter part of September, or October. But is speculation on our part to say we know the Day, month, or YEAR.

    We know the Day, and month He died, for scripture tells us, but not the year, for that would be speculation.

    As a Baptist, and a Grace believer, I find the Catholic church understands what they believe, and they find it in scripture. They believe, as do some others who say they believe in the name of Jesus Christ. They really believe in the Great Commission. I don't believe in the Great Commission for my Justification. But They Do, for it says you must be Water Baptized by the hand of a man to be saved. I am not getting off subject for you brought the Catholic religion into this conversation, at this time.
     
    #114 ituttut, Jul 7, 2011
  15. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Why do you keep saying one has to determine the YEAR? It is not speculation that we know Jesus was not born in December. We do know, that He was born in the latter part of September, or October. But is speculation on our part to say we know the Day, month, or YEAR.

    We know the Day, and the month He died, for scripture tells us. However we are not told the year, with surety, the Year that He died.

    As a Baptist, and a Grace believer, I find the Catholic church understands what they believe, and they find it in scripture. They believe, as do some others who say they believe in the name of Jesus Christ. They really believe in the Great Commission. I don't believe in the Great Commission for my Justification. But They Do, for it says you must be Water Baptized by the hand of a man to be saved. I am not getting off subject for you brought the Catholic religion into this conversation, at this time.
     
    #115 ituttut, Jul 7, 2011
  16. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    The 14th nisan occurs on different days of the week depending upon the particular year you are looking at. You don't know the year of his death until you figure out the exact year he was born. For example, the 14th of Nisan did not occur on the same day of the week in AD 30 as in AD 29.

    Until you know the exact YEAR of his birth you cannot know the exact YEAR of his death nor the exact day in the month of Nisan that the 14th fell upon because it changes from year to year.

     
    #116 Dr. Walter, Jul 7, 2011
  17. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Who said it occurred on the same day every year? Not me. You are great at what you do. You divert attention away from what one has said, to what you wish to put into their mouths.
    But Dr. Walter, when you contend for a Thursday, you will wind up with a Monday arrival of the women at the Tomb on that day when the SUN WAS COMING UP. Please go over your 72 hour, which I know you believe in. Thursday cannot possiblely be the day he died.
     
    #117 ituttut, Jul 7, 2011
  18. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    The women came to the tomb as you say "WHEN THE SUN WAS COMING UP" not when it was going down! They came on the first day of the week "early in the morning" when the sun was coming up.

    Your speculative interpretations lead you to some other conclusions. Luke definies Sunday as the "third day" since the crucifixion day. He does not include the crucifixion day but says "since" or "away from" thus excluding the crucifixion day in his counting. It was on the "third day" Jesus rose again - the third day from the crucifixion day.
     
    #118 Dr. Walter, Jul 8, 2011
  19. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    You say it very well Dr. Walter, and I agree with what you said; "the 'third day' Jesus rose again - the third day from the crucifixion day." This understanding conclusively proves Wednesday is the day He was crucified. I have said nothing else than what you say today. This conclusion allows for Luke to agree with Jesus Christ being in the heart of the earth on that Preparation Day, and Jesus Christ bodily coming forth from the Tomb on that Sunday.
     
    #119 ituttut, Jul 8, 2011
  20. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    You cannot count nor can you read English! "TODAY" Luke fixes as "the first day of the week" and says it "IS THE THIRD DAY" - the day of the resurrection - NOT SATURDAY but SUNDAY! Saturday then IS the second day since the crucifixion not the day of the resurrection. Friday IS the first day since the crucifixion which demands THURSDAY not Wednesday is the day of the crucifixion.

    Can't make it much clearer to anyone who has the ability to count and read! You reject plain English because you have a theory based upon presuppositions that you cannot prove.
     
    #120 Dr. Walter, Jul 8, 2011
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