fallacies of "non-cals"

[Tater77]

It does plenty with those who are more concerned with facts and reason than emotion.

Emotional people will always be Arminians. If a calvinist thinks he is going to persuade an Arminian by politicking, he's got a lot to learn. In order to come to the truth on these matters one must stop making decisions based solely on FEELINGS and make them based on reason.

The FACT is that it is pure idiotic to argue that KOSMOS means every single person in the world.

The best thing to do is call it what it is. People who appreciate cold hard facts will be persuaded. Those who do not will NEVER be persuaded.

Usually with your type debating Scripture is useless since we will never see a verse the same way because of different perspectives. For the record I am NOT ARMINIAN, nor am I Calvinist obviously. It seems that your sir are the one being "emotional" in this thread. You have proven next to nothing but lashed out with a verbal diatribe about everything.

I cannot agree with you since I do NOT support L-Limited atonement or or U- Unconditional election. So you see, because of our differing perspectives, we must continue to agree to disagree.

 

[Luke2427]

Screaming is using large print. It has been considered such since the beginning of discussions on the Internet. It used to be called flaming.



I see it from the Bible taken in its entirety and from the example of the life of Christ.

You still have not answered my question about which of your children would you sacrifice for your own glory?

And where is this rule that says NOT to use the font provided?

I'll answer your question though it is absurd in the highest degree if you will answer this one:

What is so special about free will that God is willing by it to damn billions and billions of souls- the vast majority of the human race which has ever had it (not babies- they don't make choices)- but the VAST majority of the human race which has ever had free will has used it to choose to spit in God's eye and damn themselves to roll and tumble in the sizzling fires of hell forever and ever- what is so special to God about free will.

To me your "free will" doctrine is an even MORE "horrible decree".

It works like this (since you wish to use children illustrations):

You have 7 children. But you want them to CHOOSE to obey you. So you lead them to a cliff. You tell them- I am going to leave for a while. Do not play close to that cliff. You will fall and die. But you know that 6 of the seven are going to choose to play near the cliff. You convince yourself the stupidest of all lies that it makes you LOVING that you give them a choice.

So how is your god more loving? Just as many perish at the plans of your god as at the plans of mine.

 

[Luke2427]

Usually with your type debating Scripture is useless since we will never see a verse the same way because of different perspectives. For the record I am NOT ARMINIAN, nor am I Calvinist obviously. It seems that your sir are the one being "emotional" in this thread. You have proven next to nothing but lashed out with a verbal diatribe about everything.

I cannot agree with you since I do NOT support L-Limited atonement or or U- Unconditional election. So you see, because of our differing perspectives, we must continue to agree to disagree.

Then what's your point?

What is the point of your posts on this thread???

You cannot be changed by your own admission. So what good would it have done for me to pet you rather than point out to you the cold hard facts?

NONE.

This is my point.

The goal is not to persuade everyone. The goal is to put the facts out there. Those who are interested in facts will be persuaded. Those who need to be politicked in are worthless anyway- in the sense that there position is meaningless. They got it because somebody made them FEEL good about it. What victory is there in getting such a person over to one's side.

If one will not listen to reason then I do not CARE if that person EVER sees the truth on these issues. Frankly, I think too many of us waste our time courting people who think with their emotions.

Reasonable people want it plain and blunt and clear.

That's what I offer.

The others- I do not care if I push them away. They are not a great catch anyway.


And one more thing. Your statement about seeing the Scriptures differently undermines the all important doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture.
I see it the way it is. Scripture is clear. You see it the way it suits you, I suppose.

 

[Crabtownboy]

And where is this rule that says NOT to use the font provided?

OK, scream all you want, it only shows immaturity.

I'll answer your question though it is absurd in the highest degree if you will answer this one:

What is so special about free will that God is willing by it to damn billions and billions of souls- the vast majority of the human race which has ever had it (not babies- they don't make choices)- but the VAST majority of the human race which has ever had free will has used it to choose to spit in God's eye and damn themselves to roll and tumble in the sizzling fires of hell forever and ever- what is so special to God about free will.

I believe God is a God of perfect justice. God will, in His own way, bring perfect justice to those who have never heard and very possibly in the process reprimand us for their now hearing.

God will work all things out in perfect justice. There is no justice in election.

You have 7 children. But you want them to CHOOSE to obey you. So you lead them to a cliff. You tell them- I am going to leave for a while. Do not play close to that cliff. You will fall and die. But you know that 6 of the seven are going to choose to play near the cliff. You convince yourself the stupidest of all lies that it makes you LOVING that you give them a choice.

You avoid my question. Which of your children would you willingly and purposefully sacrifice for your own glory. That is what you say God is doing with election.

So how is your god more loving? Just as many perish at the plans of your god as at the plans of mine.

As to numbers you are speculating. I don't. God loves us enough to allow us to make our own decision ... those of us who have heard.

 

[Luke2427]

There is no justice in election.

There is not a real Christian on earth who does not believe in election. Election is in the Bible. Arminians, Calvinists, Molinists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Greek Orthodox- EVERYBODY believes in election- everybody but you, I guess.

You avoid my question. Which of your children would you willingly and purposefully sacrifice for your own glory. That is what you say God is doing with election.

I told you I would answer this absurd question once you answered my question.

As to numbers you are speculating. I don't. God loves us enough to allow us to make our own decision ... those of us who have heard.

It is ridiculous to say that God loves the human race so much that he allows the vast majority of them to choose to go to hell without stopping them.

Your doctrine has God placing such a RIDICULOUS premium on free will that he FRIES in hell forever the vast majority of the human race just so he can have these creatures with free will.

It is absurd in the highest degree.

Now, would you let your children choose to play near the cliff because you love them so much that they should be free to choose to perish?

Answer that and I will address your, what I consider to be, silly question.

 

[Crabtownboy]

There is not a real Christian on earth who does not believe in election. Election is in the Bible. Arminians, Calvinists, Molinists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Greek Orthodox- EVERYBODY believes in election- everybody but you, I guess.

So, in your opinion, I am not a 'real' Christian unless I believe in election as you understand it. Is this correct?

I told you I would answer this absurd question once you answered my question.

I see, when you have no answer you then avoid it by saying you first. Common tactic of those who see they are trapped and no way out.

It is ridiculous to say that God loves the human race so much that he allows the vast majority of them to choose to go to hell without stopping them.

Your doctrine has God placing such a RIDICULOUS premium on free will that he FRIES in hell forever the vast majority of the human race just so he can have these creatures with free will.

But you say he predestined them to hell and they had no choice in the matter. There is no love nor justice in predestining millions to hell and they have no choice in the matter ... and it certainly does not glorify God as you and Piper suggest.

Now, would you let your children choose to play near the cliff because you love them so much that they should be free to choose to perish?

Knowing children they will play at the edge of the cliff, both literally and figuratively. So, I advise them and teach them ... just as my parents did in handling axes, guns, farm machinery, etc. as I was growing up. They knew that a person cannot keep their children from danger, but they can teach them and show them how to remain relatively safe.

Answer that and I will address your, what I consider to be, silly question.

Now, answer my question about which child you would sacrifice for your own glory ... as this is what you say God does by predestining millions to hell.

I won't be able to reply until after June 10th. I have a huge project I am finishing up and then I am flying to the visit the 3 Baltic countries and will be out of touch while there.

Cheers.

 

[Luke2427]

So, in your opinion, I am not a 'real' Christian unless I believe in election as you understand it. Is this correct?

I was very clear. I've never known of a Christian who said "There is no justice in election."

This is the problem when people who are not educated theologically begin to tackle these matters with what little understanding they have. They start to say things like this that NO educated Christian believes.

But you say he predestined them to hell and they had no choice in the matter. There is no love nor justice in predestining millions to hell and they have no choice in the matter ... and it certainly does not glorify God as you and Piper suggest.

You have God creating the exact same people for hell as Piper and I do.
Unless you are an Open Theist, then you believe that God KNOWS if he creates this person that this person is going to spend eternity in hell- yet he goes right ahead and creates them anyway.

The difference between what we believe and what you believe is that you think human free will is a worthy enough cause for the perishing of billions.

We think that is idiotic.

We think that the glory of God is a worthy enough cause.

So you have billions perishing. We have the same billions perishing.

You justify there damnation by saying God wanted free will creatures that badly.

We justify their damnation by saying that God wanted there to be evil so that he could display love and grace to the fullest.

There is no Calvary love apart from sin.

So- same billions perishing. Your reasoning- the Almighty Free Will. Ours- the glory of God.

It is really a no brainer.

Knowing children they will play at the edge of the cliff, both literally and figuratively. So, I advise them and teach them ... just as my parents did in handling axes, guns, farm machinery, etc. as I was growing up. They knew that a person cannot keep their children from danger, but they can teach them and show them how to remain relatively safe.

But you will still allow your small children to play next to the cliff EVEN THOUGH YOU COULD STOP THEM, right?

God could have STOPPED sin from coming into the world. But he didn't.

Explain.

Now, answer my question about which child you would sacrifice for your own glory ... as this is what you say God does by predestining millions to hell.

NONE for my glory. NONE. But I should be more than willing to sacrifice them all for HIS glory.

So should you.

So should God. God should be willing to sacrifice all men for his own glory if that is what his own glory called for.

Christ saw that glory worthy of sacrifice. And God did sacrifice his only begotten son for that very purpose.

There is your answer.

 

[Rippon]

For the record I am NOT ARMINIAN, nor am I Calvinist obviously.

I do NOT support L-Limited atonement or or U- Unconditional election.

Whether you want to admit it or not,you fall into the Arminian camp. It may not be a perfect fit,but you don't even qualify as an Amyraldian.

 

[Rippon]

There is no justice in election.

Yes,it's all about the Lord's grace and mercy.

 

[Rippon]

It appears to me that the phrase "those the Father gives the Son" is specifically in reference to the remnant of Israel who were given to Christ while one earth to be discipled and prepared to take the message of redemption to the rest of the world.

So no Gentile is ever given by the Father to the Son?! Where do you come up with this stuff. Anyone who is saved they were given by the Father to the Son. I suppose you are a Gentile. Are you saying there was no transference between the Father and the Son in your case? You are out in the boonies on this one Skan.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In John 3:16, the Greek word for world used is κόσμον, (kosmon or kosmos), root to the English "cosmos" which is pretty all encompassing.

Meaning the planet / all creation under the sun, which "should" include all people.

Now a verse like Luke 2:1 uses the Greek word οἰκουμένην (oikoumenēn) which means the land / inhabited world. In this context the Roman empire. The same word is used in Matt 24:14.

So yes, John 3:16 DOES mean the whole world that is the planet including everyone in it.

On another thread someone was asking about the benefit of an analytical concordance. Well, if you have one, you can look up on the occurrences of kosmos and you will see that it very frequently does not mean 'all the people in the world.'

have a look at John 14:22, Rom 1:8, 1Cor 1:21, James 3:6, 1John 2:15, to name but a few, and you will see that they cannot mean all the people in all the world.

Steve

 

[Luke2427]

On another thread someone was asking about the benefit of an analytical concordance. Well, if you have one, you can look up on the occurrences of kosmos and you will see that it very requently does not mean 'all the people in the world.'

have a look at John 14:22, Rom 1:8, 1Cor 1:21, James 3:6, 1John 2:15, to name but a few, and you will see that they cannot mean all the people in all the world.

Steve

You're absolutely right- if by "very frequently" you mean it almost NEVER means every single person in the world.

But really when you get down to it, this is the WHOLE FOUNDATION of the "non-cal" belief system.

If you take from them the "all" and "whole world" proof texts, they have almost NOTHING.

Then if you address the second fallacy- that God is not bringing his will to pass- that's really it.

Yet there are more fallacies that they have which can also easily be addressed.

The longer I study the more I am amazed that there are people who actually believe this stuff which has God not getting his way and not in charge and rests almost WHOLLY on a handful of bible passages extraordinarily poorly exegeted.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust in Jesus is

I am on ignore, but that is O.K. When you see that election was no guarantee for the Jews, that the were disowned for disowning Jesus. That they were cut out for unbelief, and could not enter. That we have to make sure our election is sure. That you got to make sure when you preach that you yourself will not be disqualified for the prize. The goal of our faith the prize is the salvation of our soul. To work out our salvation with fear and trembling. They make an excuse not to believe those scripture to.

When we turn to Jesus anyone then and only then will the veil be removed, not before.

So the only true guarantee found in scripture is to trust in Jesus.

1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Now that is a sure foundation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am on ignore, but that is O.K. When you see that election was no guarantee for the Jews, that the were disowned for disowning Jesus. That they were cut out for unbelief, and could not enter. That we have to make sure our election is sure. That you got to make sure when you preach that you yourself will not be disqualified for the prize. The goal of our faith the prize is the salvation of our soul. To work out our salvation with fear and trembling. They make an excuse not to believe those scripture to.

When we turn to Jesus anyone then and only then will the veil be removed, not before.

So the only true guarantee found in scripture is to trust in Jesus.

1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Now that is a sure foundation.

I don't think i'm in disagreement with anything you say here. The elect will be saved beyond a shadow of doubt, but they will only be saved if they repent of their sins and trust in Christ. Therefore anyone who is relying on his supposed election is living a life of unrepentant sin, he is deceiving himself (1Cor 6:9-11).

When we turn to Jesus anyone then and only then will the veil be removed, not before.

Yes, but unless God removes the veil no one will ever turn to Jesus (John 6:44 etc., etc.). First God works in our hearts, then we believe, then we get 2Cor 3:18.

Steve

 

[psalms109:31]

gospel

Ops a double post sorry

 

[psalms109:31]

gospel

We are to come to Jesus an empty vessel the only way to do that is in repentance. To just trust in jesus and listen and learn from Hin and then He romoves the vei.l The scripture teachees to turn to Him and then He removes our veil. That is the Gospel message.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We are to come to Jesus an empty vessel the only way to do that is in repentance. To just trust in Jesus and listen and learn from Him and then He romoves the veil The scripture teachees to turn to Him and then He removes our veil. That is the Gospel message.

Yes. but the Lord opened Lydia's heart to repond to Paul's message (Acts 16:14). She could not open her own heart anymore than Lazarus could raise himself from the dead.

Steve

 

[psalms109:31]

Yes. but the Lord opened Lydia's heart to repond to Paul's message (Acts 16:14). She could not open her own heart anymore than Lazarus could raise himself from the dead.

Steve

I will not take away from the work of the Holy Spirit or claim it as my own. The word of Jesus is life and the Spirit. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The life and the word of Jesus, for Jesus dwell in us through the Holy Spirit.

It opens their heart to do two roads not one. You can either come to Jesus as Lydia did or do as the young rich ruler. The words are calling us to follow Jesus, but we can walk away like the young rich ruler did.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke2427

I posted...

Almighty God is crystal clear in His scriptures that it is not His will that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance, and faith in Christ alone.

God can and does cause that saving truth to come to all, with the "drawing" and convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Those who freely choose to heed Gods message will be saved.

Those who freely choose to reject Gods message will be lost

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ

And you responded....

That is a horrible hermeneutic.

Nonsense. Its the truth of the scriptures.

It is precisely that kind of hermeneutic that perpetuates this "non-cal" doctrine.

Nonsense. Your allegience to John Calvin has rendered you unable to properly discern truth from the scriptures.

It is not God's will that any of his people should perish. That is ALL that phrase is saying.

II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is not slack concerning his promise to US not willing that any of US should perish.

His promise is to US. And he is not going to tolerate that any of US (his people) should perish. No. Instead he is going to see to it that all of those he has elected will come to repentance.

Nonsense. Foolishness

Honestly, that is invincibly plain.

Its invincibly plain that you have a blind alligience to Calvin. You are not the only one, there are others. Your truth authority is John Calvin, not the scriptures.

THAT is invincibly plain

AiC

 

[JesusFan]

Luke2427

I posted...



And you responded....




Nonsense. Its the truth of the scriptures.



Nonsense. Your allegience to John Calvin has rendered you unable to properly discern truth from the scriptures.



Nonsense. Foolishness



Its invincibly plain that you have a blind alligience to Calvin. You are not the only one, there are others. Your truth authority is John Calvin, not the scriptures.

THAT is invincibly plain

AiC

Dont know that he is "blindly" following Calvin, think he is wedded to a "high end: take on Calvinism, that God is cause/determinite in all things...

Some from te Arminian side is wedded to "free will" so much that its almost as if God sitting it out on sidelines hoping and praying that one of us make that decision to follow Christ!