The Return Of Jesus

We're currently studying REv during wed bible study but I must admit that with my little one, I cant really focus (we're going to a new church planter's church wed since our church is over an hour away and my hubby doesnt get off work in time to drive down)...
but yeah.. What verse was it when they are talking about when Isreal becomes a nation again, that that generation will basically see when the beginning of the end occurs... i heard 1948 and 1967 but didnt hear what exactly he said because I was trying to keep my LO from writing all over himself...
but yeah.. what would you consider a generation? I think I heard him say 40 years is considered a generation..so that would mean "any day now" lol...yowzers...

I wanna see my boy get married..but then again..If i don't ..i probably won't be too disappointed lol

 

The word for Generation in that passage, MamaCW, is related to genome.. IOWs the Jewish DNA will not vanish from earth until all is accomplished..

 

I personally don't hold to Dispensational Premillennialism.

 

Your timeline completely ignores Christ's clear teaching in Matthew 13 that the unbelievers will be gathered out first at the end of the world. How do you explain this?

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn....

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

MamaCW, you are prolly way to young to remember 1988.. I was 18 at that time, and remember a lot of date setters say the Rapture was happening then because it was 40 yrs (one biblical generation) after Israel became a nation.. (1948).. when that didn't happen, they moved the date to 40 yrs after 1967.

Also, another problem with dating things from the dates of today's nation of Israel is the problem that they rejected Jesus, and the church is now the ones with the promises through Jesus.. WE are Spiritual Israel. (according to apostle Paul)..

I am curious what would happen if today's national Israel was destroyed, or taken over.. what would the dispensationalists say?
It could happen, because that country is no more special now than any other country.

The OT promises that God made Israel were either fulfilled in Christ, or will be fulfilled in the church, the true Israel.. those that are IN the Seed (Jesus).

 

Yep, well stated :thumbsup:

 

You may want to check this out as this entire section in Matthew is addressed to religious Jews:
Matthew 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"
In a case like this, I would assign this chapter of scripture to Messianic Jews DURING the Tribulation (ie: "disciples").

The "benchmark" of scripture applying to born-again believers in this present age of "The Church" and prior to the
Tribulation would be found in Thessalonians (both first and second).

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" I Thes. 5:9 :love2:

 

But Christians through they ages have been affected by God's wrath being pourd out on unbelievers..

 

Yes, like Noah, Lot, the Hebrew firstborns in Egypt, etc.

 

That "benchmark" is presuppositional eisegesis, not Biblical exegesis. Matthew 24 is spoken to Jews in the present sense, not in a futuristic sense. "Pray ye that your flight be not in winter..." Premillennialism requires the rejection of proper grammatical interpretation of Scripture in lieu of a "soon means later" & "you means someone else". Rightly dividing the Word means that we should seek to understand the Word as it was understood by the original hearers & recipients of the epistles & books.

 

The passages spoken by Jesus to his disciples will have a tremendous impact upon the disciples during the Tribulation.
Of course, the Gentile Bride of Christ will be observing these things from the Third Heaven (Rev. 4:1).
The Jews have a destiny to fulfill which was "suspended" until the "fullness of the Gentiles". There will be Jewish Disciples in the Tribulation.
Matt 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Like I said, the Holy Spirit specifically included in Matthew 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter,
neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation" (last 1/2 of Tribulation where God's WRATH
is poured out on the inhabitants of the world).

 

The last part was from you, not the Holy Spirit. Scripture refers to a time of tribulation that they will experience, hence "pray that your flight be not...". Also, it is never referred to as the Great Tribulation; that is man-made title. You are ignoring the grammatical context of the passage in order to fit it to your premillennial theology. He was telling the actual hearers to be prepared for the coming judgement. How do you balance your views with Matthew 13 where Jesus said unequivocally, " Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn... The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world"?

After all these years, it still amazes me when I see someone so blatantly ignore & reject the clearly written & easily understood words & context of the Text so that they may believe a hodgepodge doctrine. This generation means that generation. You means someone else. Soon means in thousands of years. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

 

OK, then from your perspective Matthew Ch. 24 has already been fulfilled and as such is irrelevant to the Church as composed of Gentile Christians.
If it is "past" and hence no longer relevant, then it should not be used to form any doctrine of eschatology... right?

I personally would use the Gentile Epistles written by the Apostle to the Gentiles as a FOUNDATION on which to
"rightly divide the scriptures". Anything contradicting Pauline doctrine I would assign to be N/A or assigned to "another dispensation".
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
see also: I Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11

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Now the Bereans were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and
examined the Septuagint every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11 paraphrased :laugh:

 

I would agree, and clearly from pauls writings to the thessalonians in both books, the gathering of believers does not happen until after the anti-christ is revealed.

when one interprets scripture it is extremely important to let the scripture say what it says as naturally as possible and not force an external view on it.

while i myself do not hold a hard specific view on this issue, one thing i can say with confidence. hard "pretribulation", bride of christ, pre 70th week of daniel theology is forced on scripture and not naturally read anywhere.

no one, coming in to scripture and reading the plain meaning of it would come up with this view. in order to arrive at those conclusions you must alredy have several pre conceived ideas that you use as a mold to force other scriptures into.

 

OOps!
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved" Matt 24:21-22a

So maybe Jesus was misguided? Or the Great Tribulation of Revelation has already taken place??

 

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thes 4:16-17

Nothing in this passage indicates that the Lord Jesus Christ is physically RETURNING to the Earth. Revelation 19 clearly describes the return of Jesus
TO THE EARTH to destroy his enemies.

As far as to the timing of the revelation of the False-Christ, 2 Thess 2 may require a little research to come to a conclusion for yourself as the Holy Spirit leads you.
You will have to determine exactly what the "day of Christ" (2 Thes 2:2) means;
and what apostasia means in the context as "departure" could be a double-entendre (2 Thes 2:3).

 

according to second Thessalonians chapter 2 that event can not happen until after the man of sin is revealed.

first of all apostasia is a well known word and it does not mean what you say at all. this is another example of having an idea and forcing it on scripture regardless of the cost. secondly that would cause the scripture to contradict itself. "the gathering can not occur until after the gathering occurs".

This brings up an even more important point. Here we have a modern day example of the kind of logic and thinking that Jesus confronted in His own day. You have an idea, and you are willing to completely ignore and or change the meaning of any scripture in order to fit your idea. The whole idea that Paul was exclusively the apostle to the gentiles and none of the other apostles were completely contradicts the very words of Jesus himself as well as other facts recorded in the New Testament.

No where is it said that Paul is the *exclusive* apostle to the gentiles and the 12 are the apostles to Israel. In fact that idea completely contradicts the great Commission, where some time ahead of pauls conversion Jesus told the 12 and the disciples with them to start in Israel and take the gospel to the gentiles.

Several apostles were martyred in gentile countries being apostles not to Jews in those countries but gentiles. Further, God demonstrated the Gospel that the 12 preached and the message they preached was for the gentiles as can be demonstrated in acts long before paul was on the scene.

how is it that the men of today feel so comfortable with tossing out the words of Jesus himself and exalting one of his apostles higher than the Lord?

how does anything Paul is told later super seed this spoken by Jesus to those who watched Him ascend into Heaven after spending 3 1/2 years with him and witnessing the resurrection?

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Mat 28:18-20)

Paul the apostle was not given a new message or a different message, he is not the bringer of a "new dispensation" that only started with his calling into ministry. He was added to the existing ministry.

There are so many extremely bad doctrinal ideas no where taught in scripture packaged together to make this view. It would take pages to demonstrate the poor scripture interpretation and or where external ideas are forced on the text. The Church is made up of Jews and Gentiles, not only gentiles. there is no such thing as the Gentile bride.

We do not teach doctrine by supposed typology. We teach doctrine according to the clear teaching of scripture, within its historical, grammatical, structural context, as it would have been read and understood by the original recipients in a plain way.

i know this will not be enough for you to consider the ideas you have been taught. But maybe it will at least give you pause to stop and think about them vs what the scripture actually says.

 

That's an awfully noisy return with the shouting, angels & trumpets for it to be a super secret rapture of the church that nobody hears or sees. Matthew 13 says clearly that the unbelievers will be taken first. I'll believe Jesus over you.:jesus:

 

I would find it very "sketchy" to form doctrine on parables... sorry.