True/False : it is The Will of God that NONE perish, All Receive His Son Jesus!

[Dr Mixer GED]

There is absolutely no reason that this is true.

And whenever you start a question with "Why would God..." you've already dived in way over your head.

It is enough that God said he DID.

God said he elected some. God said he passed over others. God said he wept over those he passed over. That is enough.

To try to answer the question, "Why would God...?" is presumption in the highest degree. Who would presume to be able to explain the Almighty, Eternal, All Wise God?

I'm not presuming to explain God and His ways. Jesus said He wished that they would accept Him, but they would not. This is why He lamented. They chose to reject Him. Your answer only rings true if God does indeed choose to send the majority of people to Hell. As others have pointed out, with scripture, God's will is that only those who accept Christ will be saved, but that He wants all to be saved.

 

[Allan]

It is enough that God said he DID.

This is true and we should note what God said He did, but not do so blindly either.

God said he elected some

Very true, and established in scripture but again, we shouldn't just blindly accept any one version. But yes, God did say He elected.

God said he passed over others

Hmm.. Can't find this one in scripture. Please show where God said that He "passed over" anyone.

 

[convicted1]

Why would Jesus weep that they would not choose Him if He didn't choose them? God would not lament over people rejecting Him if He made it that they absolutely could not accept Him.

Very good point, Brother. :applause::applause::applause:

 

[convicted1]

There is absolutely no reason that this is true.

And whenever you start a question with "Why would God..." you've already dived in way over your head.

It is enough that God said he DID.

God said he elected some. God said he passed over others. God said he wept over those he passed over. That is enough.

To try to answer the question, "Why would God...?" is presumption in the highest degree. Who would presume to be able to explain the Almighty, Eternal, All Wise God?

That which I bolded, I want you to prove with scripture. I was thinking the very same thing, when I read Bro. Allan's post. I can read nowhere where He passed over anyone.

 

[Luke2427]

This is true and we should note what God said He did, but not do so blindly either.

Very true, and established in scripture but again, we shouldn't just blindly accept any one version. But yes, God did say He elected.


Hmm.. Can't find this one in scripture. Please show where God said that He "passed over" anyone.

You believe this too. God saves some and does not save others. As far as salvation is concerned he passes over them. You believe he passes over them because they could not muster the faith that others could. But whatever the case- GOD PASSES OVER THEM. He does not save those who do not believe.

If he saves those who DO believe and he does not save those who do not believe- what do you call that?

NOTE: At this point you'll probably come up with a statement that does not use the words "pass over" but means the same thing.

It is very simple.

God saves some and for WHATEVER reason- he passes over others.

The only way around that is universalism.

Now at this point I am not arguing that he passes over some so far as the offer is concerned. I know what you believe about that. I am talking about the ACTUAL SAVING.


Some he saves and some he passes over- no way around it.

 

[Luke2427]

That which I bolded, I want you to prove with scripture. I was thinking the very same thing, when I read Bro. Allan's post. I can read nowhere where He passed over anyone.

I'll give Scripture in a moment, but read post 25 for the necessary logic of it.

I'll give it in syllogism form here:

Salvation is active on God's part; God DOES the saving.

Damnation is passive on God's part- God does not DO anything to damn men.

Those who are damned have been PASSed over by God.

Think of it this way.

There are 20 cookies on a plate.

I eat 5.

What did I do with the other 15?

I passed over them.

Either all men are saved or God passes over some.

There's no way around it.

 

[Luke2427]

Very good point, Brother. :applause::applause::applause:

Respectfully, let me say you are mistaken, imo.

It is not a good point. No point is ever good that is built on the logic of "WHy would God...?"

 

[Allan]

You believe this too. God saves some and does not save others. As far as salvation is concerned he passes over them. You believe he passes over them because they could not muster the faith that others could. But whatever the case- GOD PASSES OVER THEM. He does not save those who do not believe.

If he saves those who DO believe and he does not save those who do not believe- what do you call that?

NOTE: At this point you'll probably come up with a statement that does not use the words "pass over" but means the same thing.

It is very simple.

God saves some and for WHATEVER reason- he passes over others.

The only way around that is universalism.

Now at this point I am not arguing that he passes over some so far as the offer is concerned. I know what you believe about that. I am talking about the ACTUAL SAVING.


Some he saves and some he passes over- no way around it.

I was honestly asking where does God state he "passes over' people.

The phrase 'passing over' is a sort of loaded phrase as even in the Reformed camp it holds to different meanings depending on the group one is in. If by passing over, you mean He does not save due to unbelief (in general that can be deemed acceptable with differences in the mechanics of operation and not the immutable truth of it). However if like in another group, to 'pass over' can mean that there is not even an offer presented to the unbelievers.

And a few other varieties depending of how you are approaching the issue and what issue is being approached.

Thus, while in one sense I don't deny the phrase as having biblical merit theologically, in another it must be defined as it is a theological statement but not actually stated (as in 'passed over') in scripture... ie. Trinity, moral depravity and other such terms and phrases

 

[Luke2427]

I was honestly asking where does God state he "passes over' people.

The phrase 'passing over' is a sort of loaded phrase as even in the Reformed camp it holds to different meanings depending on the group one is in. If by passing over, you mean He does not save due to unbelief (in general that can be deemed acceptable with differences in the mechanics of operation and not the immutable truth of it). However if like in another group, to 'pass over' can mean that there is not even an offer presented to the unbelievers.

That is hyper-cal. I am not hyper-cal.

In anther sense one can state 'passing over' can mean God did nothing (no grace) toward them and thus salvation and thus for salvation God choose to 'pass over them' because He doesn't want them but someone else.

I don't know of anyone who thinks like this.

However it cans be seen in another light if God reaching out to all men, and some reject, He 'passes over' them and leaves them to their own condemnation.
(at which point the question is begged - what is the purpose for God being kind and reaching out to man in general? - but that for the moment is another topic.)

The problem here is that ALL reject until God regenerates.

Thus, while in one sense I don't deny the phrase as having biblical merit theologically, in another it must be defined as it is a theological statement but not actually stated (as in 'passed over') in scripture... ie. Trinity, moral depravity and other such terms and phrases

Regardless both my system and your system? see God choosing to save some and "passing over" others.

 

[Allan]

I don't know of anyone who thinks like this.

I know quite a few Supras how hold this view. At another debate site a few years ago (StrangeBaptistFire) I was engaged by quite a few, and there are a few on this Board as well. Rippon being one.

The problem here is that ALL reject until God regenerates.

The meaning of the word 'regenerate' is biblically debatable there..

Regardless both my system and your system? see God choosing to save some and "passing over" others.

Again, it all depends on how you are using the phrase.

 

[Luke2427]

I know quite a few Supras how hold this view. At another debate site a few years ago (StrangeBaptistFire) I was engaged by quite a few, and there are a few on this Board as well. Rippon being one.

That is not accurate. I lean toward supra myself (more like Edwards' infra) and I do not see it that way.

The meaning of the word 'regenerate' is biblically debatable there..

To quicken or make alive. This is necessary before one is able to respond spiritually to God.

Again, it all depends on how you are using the phrase.

I don't think so. Some are not saved- God thus passes over them as it pertains to saving men. There is no way around that.

 

[Jerome]

Respectfully, let me say you are mistaken, imo.

It is not a good point. No point is ever good that is built on the logic of "WHy would God...?"

whenever you start a question with "Why would God..." you've already dived in way over your head.

Exhibit A?

Why would God allow this to happen to one He loves? Well...God was behind it all along.

Exhibit B?

Put another way... Why would God allow a person to enter His eternal kingdom who might choose once again as did Adam (or Lucifer) to rebel against God? To me, that blows a hole in the human-centered arguments.

Exhibit C?

Why would God need to do such a thing to get his way? Since God is immutable and all-wise he cannot be unreasonable. He is the source of reason. If he has no reason behind what he does then he is being unreasonable which is impossible with God.

 

[Luke2427]

Exhibit A?


Exhibit B?


Exhibit C?

The point in my quote was, if I recall, that someone was saying God needed to do something.

I was only asking why God would need to do that something when the Bible doesn't say that he needs to do it.

That is a totally different context.

I was actually defending this very point that you do not get to say God NEEDS to do something- that is the same as asking "Why would God...?" when God clearly said he does.

 

[Jerome]

Just as you said.

No point is ever good that is built on the logic of "WHy would God...?"

whenever you start a question with "Why would God..." you've already dived in way over your head.

 

[Luke2427]

As you said:

Right. I suppose I should have been more clear.

My previous post is sufficient clarification.

I should have said, "Any time you say 'Why would God do this or that' you are way in over your head."

No one can answer "Why does God do...?" unless the Bible tells us why.

Clear enough now?

 

[psalms109:31]

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


1 Corinthians 1 :
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[Jer. 9:24]

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

Zephaniah 3
12 But I will leave within you
the meek and humble,
who trust in the name of the LORD.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

 

[Luke2427]

posting random verses without exposition or making a point

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


1 Corinthians 1 :
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[Jer. 9:24]

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

Zephaniah 3
12 But I will leave within you
the meek and humble,
who trust in the name of the LORD.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

[psalms109:31]

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 1:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

It is awesome that God would include with His elect a dog like me, begging at His table. The one at first He rejected.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, God wants all to come to repentance and faith. However, His sovereign choice of some to salvation is the source of humanity's salvation and not the whims of sinful people.

Amen, Amen & Amen:thumbs:

 

[Allan]

That is not accurate. I lean toward supra myself (more like Edwards' infra) and I do not see it that way.

I never said did, nor did I state all Supra's held this view.
To presume that if you don't hold to it, necessitates that none do is not logical nor factual.

To quicken or make alive. This is necessary before one is able to respond spiritually to God.

Again, that is biblically debatable..
Is one alive if they are still in darkness, and under the power of Satan, and still slaves? Can you choose life, before your heart is circumcised?

Because IF NOT.. then you have an issue with much of scripture.

I agree with what regeneration DOES (in accordance with the Reformed writers) , I just find biblical problems with 'How' it does this and therefore 'When' does it transpire.

I don't think so. Some are not saved- God thus passes over them as it pertains to saving men. There is no way around that.

Again, it depends on how you define 'passing over', even you stated that one of the way some view passing over is not biblical even though it IS a view that is held by some Supras. Thus you would state 'their' view of it is not valid regarding 'passing over' and they would disagree with your view regarding God 'passing over'.