From the Bible first of all.
But it is a large percentage view point among the reformed faith- if not the majority.
Take for example, R. C. Sproul.
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True/False : it is The Will of God that NONE perish, All Receive His Son Jesus!
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
From the Bible first of all.
But it is a large percentage view point among the reformed faith- if not the majority.
Take for example, R. C. Sproul.
"Little to know education."
Are you seriously insulting me for a typo?
Obviously I meant "little to no".
Sure it was just a typo. I thought it was funny though because you were all fired-up about the value of education.
Didn't you notice the smiley-face?
I am undoubtedly being over sensitive. My apologies.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Gotta love R C Sproul. I have his app on my android. Ligonier ministries, you can instantly listen to any message of his you want. It is very nice to have.
John MacArthur Jr, also has one, does the same thing.
Also bott radio network has an app and can be listened to through the android. Erwin Lutzer is an excellent teacher on there. A few others too.
Yea I love up until he tells you that infant baptism is the new circumcision....then he just gets plain weird but then again he is a Presbyterian (gotta factor it in to the equation)
preacher4truth
Active Member
Wow...how rare it is when we don't totally agree with another brother!!!
What is this world coming to?
:laugh:
Dr Mixer GED
Member
Calvinists are geniuses!
Okay, I know how totally smart you guys all are. It's amazing. I mean John Mac can go on for three hours about the history of a single word! OMG!
But seriously, are not all these families in which all 5 (or more) are saved just plain lucky? They just all happen to be "elect"?
Them are some good odds!
Okay, I know how totally smart you guys all are. It's amazing. I mean John Mac can go on for three hours about the history of a single word! OMG!
But seriously, are not all these families in which all 5 (or more) are saved just plain lucky? They just all happen to be "elect"?
Them are some good odds!
Tom Butler
New Member
No, we Calvinists are not arrogant at all. We are humble people. Our humility combined with our above-average intelligence is a winning combination.
If we were smart and arrogant, we would be obnoxious.
Since we are smart and humble, we have two irresistible qualities. Well, irresistible except for you. I don't understand that. Why do you see our intelligence but not our humility? Our humility is one of our best features.
Dr Mixer GED
Member
Tom, you actually honestly do seem like a very humble guy!
preacher4truth
Active Member
I don't think it is unusual as some Biblical accounts seems to suggest entire households saved. Acts 11 and 16. Is anything too hard for the Lord?
Also, saved (salvation) and elect (election) go had in hand. We love to grasp the word "saved" and we don't question that. "That entire family got saved." We rejoice. But put it another way? "That entire house is the elect of God Almighty." Then people cringe. People struggle with the Sovereignty of God and His choosing and electing some and reserving others for eternal punishment.
Here's a way to look at it: Are any holy, righteous, just, good? Absolutely not. So if God allows such to be eternally punished, what do we call that? We call it justice. God is just in punishing such. They are guilty. If on the other hand they are known as believers, saved, elect, what do we call that? We call that grace. Those under grace and mercy did not get what they deserved, and at the same time received what they did not deserve. God is seen in these two instances as just and the justifier. His Sovereignty and glory and justice and grace on full display.
Glory to His Name.
- Blessings
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Nice answer, but it does not answer how election can be unconditional (according to Calvinism) and yet entire families can be elected. If election is not based on anything in man, election should appear random, but it does not. Unconditional Election is not consistent to what we observe as reality. Why are some nations more "elect" than others? Why are there many elect in "Christian" countries like the United States where the gospel is freely preached, whereas there are almost no elect in non Christian countries like Saudi Arabia where it is banned?
If election is unconditional and not based on anything in man, it should appear random from our perspective, but it does not.
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Ever heard of Uriah Heep (not the band)?
preacher4truth
Active Member
It's not a "nice answer" it's truth, but thanks. I never sought to answer all the things you bring up, but it's how you discount things in order to minimize them and marginalize them to stay blind to things you don't like.
For instance:
The whole entire problem is, Winman, that you struggle with God being Sovereign, and you don't think it's fair, so you draw up God how you like to see Him, because it makes you more comfortable. It makes you very uncomfortable concerning election, Sovereignty, because again, you think it should all be "fair."
That's the clay telling the Potter how He should make His vessels.
Still I await your answer where you said there is only one type of faith. I proved by Scripture you are wrong. You folks amaze me how you tuck tail, and don't answer when proven wrong. Perhaps you should actually think things through instead of typing an immediate response ad lib and off the cuff with anger and emotion controlling you instead of considering the whole counsel of God? This is why you don't advance in knowledge, you leave things undone and you absolutely cannot learn from another.
BTW, I want you to understand another thing. I have read maybe 3 pages from any of Calvins works. Maybe.
I'm a Biblicist. Not a Calvinist, although Calvinist fits with my belief in Scripture.
It's Biblical.
- Blessings
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I am not saying God is not fair, I believe God is perfectly just.
But how can God be just and not consider what he sees in man? We judge a man according to what he does. We justly honor a man who does what is good, and we justly condemn a man who does evil. This is justice, this is fair, every man is rewarded according to his works.
So, how is it possible for God to be a just judge if he does not take a man's works into consideration?
So you see, Unconditional Election denies justice. You may not see that, but it is true.
Calvinism over-emphasizes God's sovereignty at the expense of his other attributes as mercy, love, and justice.
But how can God be just and not consider what he sees in man? We judge a man according to what he does. We justly honor a man who does what is good, and we justly condemn a man who does evil. This is justice, this is fair, every man is rewarded according to his works.
So, how is it possible for God to be a just judge if he does not take a man's works into consideration?
So you see, Unconditional Election denies justice. You may not see that, but it is true.
Calvinism over-emphasizes God's sovereignty at the expense of his other attributes as mercy, love, and justice.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Unconditional Election does not deny justice. This is why I say you feel God is unfair. I see in your writings this to be true. I struggled with these things. The testimony of Scripture reigns. It is biblical.
As to God taking mans works into consideration in light of eternity and salvation, what is the conclusion of God Winman, concerning those works you allude to?
God is just in punishing any for all eternity.
When God punished His Son for the sins of His people, He did so justly. It's hard to fathom this, but it is truth.
Let us never ask for justice. Grace only, and mercy.
Some Calvinists may over-emphasize one aspect over another, but such is human nature. Let's not stereotype the entire group that way. I know some, and yes on here, become obsessed and assinine with these things. We all have our "sugar-stick" as they used to say.
Your statement is confusing. Election is not based on anything in a person. That's why it is unconditional. It is God showing mercy to His elect. God does nothing randomly. That is blasphemous to say.
Don't you know that even your most righteous acts are like filthy rags?
It is not true. You confuse God's justice with His mercy. He is just to condemn all of us to eternal perdition. Instead,out of His mercy,He has chosen some for eternal life. Mercy means He did't have to do it. He extended grace to His elect. It would have been perfectly just for him to damn all of the human race to the eternal Lake of Fire.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Most won't embrace unconditionality. Well, to a point some will. Part of the problem lies in the fact that psychological-"biblicism" has entered the church, and many believe God saved them because they are so valuable.
False.
Either we believe it is unconditional, all of Grace, all of mercy, or we believe we merited it, and that is exactly what this psycho-heresy teaches when it says we are valuable, thus, God died for us.