Paul's Relentless "Calvinism" Drove His Evangelical Effort

[preacher4truth]

Wouldn't it be better to debate the biblical tenents of the gifts of grace and the absolute sovereignty of the living God without attaching to them the names of dead men especially in a public forum with "seekers" coming and going?

HankD​

Yes. It would be. Now, God is the God of the living, not of the dead, so some of the fathers of the faith are much more alive now than we are.

I see the absolute Sovereignty in this text, and His gifts of Grace, awaiting to be bestowed upon His people. He is in total control, and uses those, as Paul, who are seeking Him. 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

So, concerning this, what do you think the knowing of the elect being "out there" should do to our evangelistic efforts?

On a personal note, I am labelled a "calvinist," yet, I have not read his works. I do, however, see the DoGs in Scripture, and they are wonderful.

These things aside, I turn back to my objective in the OP and for comment thereupon.

- Blessings and Peace in Him

 

[HankD]

Yes. It would be. Now, God is the God of the living, not of the dead, so some of the fathers of the faith are much more alive now than we are.

I see the absolute Sovereignty in this text, and His gifts of Grace, awaiting to be bestowed upon His people. He is in total control, and uses those, as Paul, who are seeking Him. 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

So, concerning this, what do you think the knowing of the elect being "out there" should do to our evangelistic efforts?

On a personal note, I am labelled a "calvinist," yet, I have not read his works. I do, however, see the DoGs in Scripture, and they are wonderful.

These things aside, I turn back to my objective in the OP and for comment thereupon.

- Blessings and Peace in Him

Don't forget this scripture as well P4T:

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.​

Let us suppose that your views are correct, there are also things which are difficult for some babes in Christ to digest and perhaps better left to God to reveal to them in the proper time.​

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:​

Blessings to you and yours as well brother.

HankD​

 

[Crabtownboy]

God chose to use "the foolishness of preaching" 1 Corinthians 1:21, to save His people. That's the Scriptural side of what you are conjecturing. So, in essence God does need Paul because He decreed it to be this way. Why? Well, He chose Paul even in his mothers womb to preach the Gospel, Galatians 1:17, and even way before that actually.

And, then, another thing your statement hasn't considered are the rewards we will receive in our preaching, and efforts, which is also foreordained, and/or decreed by God.

I have to totally disagree with your premise. It's not based in Scripture.

If some Calvinist are correct on this board you would have received the rewards regardless as you were elected to receive them.

On your scripture comment, I believe much that passes for Calvinism on the board is not scriptural ... but that is a topic for another thread.

Calvinist have convinced me that Calvin, if he really believe what they say he taught, was wrong and thus Calvinism is wrong. However, I expect that Calvin would not recognize much that is attributed to him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Robert...

I agree and support your post.

...Bob

Oh Bob & Robert.....I dont support your posts

 

[preacher4truth]

If some Calvinist are correct on this board you would have received the rewards regardless as you were elected to receive them.

On your scripture comment, I believe much that passes for Calvinism on the board is not scriptural ... but that is a topic for another thread.

Calvinist have convinced me that Calvin, if he really believe what they say he taught, was wrong and thus Calvinism is wrong. However, I expect that Calvin would not recognize much that is attributed to him.

Yes. So you agree God does then use them, as He chose to do so? The rewarding follows logically this choosing. The fact is that God did choose those who preach, in that, according to His plan, they are essential to fulfilling this, as it accomplishes His purposes, and He chose them to be essential in this.

I'm certain there are some things that Calvin may not recognize, and I have nothing readily to quote that anyone has attributed to Calvin as saying, so this is pure speculation until proven otherwise.

However, I think many who elaborate on DoGs, discover and present things that never came to his mind.

Knowing that God has His elect, waiting to be saved, how does this attribute to our confidence in our own evangelistic efforts?

Paul endured persecutions and suffering, having this knowledge, which kept him going.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

the truth is offensive to some....we should not stop the truth
The trinity is offensive to those who do not believe in it,yet it is truth.

There are two systems debated here. One is error.
Because these ideas were systematized at a certain point in history...does not mean that people throughout biblical times did not stand in one system or the other. Have you ever heard it preached that Cain had a works gospel?

It does not bother me...when Robert Snow says calvinism is wrong...everytime he posts...then AIC,or quantum agree with him...I expect it at this point...he should be free to express what he believes without being censored.
But when this error is posted...and he gets responses why should it be a surprise?

Some find it offensive because it points out a clear distinction between the two systems.
He is honest enough to post that he does not believe it is true.

Some jump in to the deep end of the pool....cannot swim.....tread water for awhile.....get pulled out...then want the pool closed because they cannot swim!

You just nailed it! :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

Personally, I think it was love that motivated Paul's evangelical efforts, not his soteriological perspective in regard to the Cal/Arm distinction. If it wasn't then it was "a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

 

[preacher4truth]

Personally, I think it was love that motivated Paul's evangelical efforts, not his soteriological perspective in regard to the Cal/Arm distinction. If it wasn't then it was "a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

I think it were both, as this passage supports the soterilological side, his seeing the magnificence of Gods love, and the God who set in motion this soteriological truth that His elect await, that motivated him, because, He saw Gods great love for him, mightily displayed in Gods Grace, and His authority in sending Him to gather the elect with this same love made him stand in awe, even suffering for it.

Truth sets us free, and he had both love and truth.

Love without truth is not love.

In fairness, one (love) does not cancel out the other (the soteriological drive, i.e. truth) at the very least in the case of Paul, which is our subject.

- Peace

 

[Skandelon]

I think it were both, as this passage supports the soterilological side, his seeing the magnificence of Gods love, and the God who set in motion this soteriological truth that His elect await, that motivated him, because, He saw Gods great love for him, mightily displayed in Gods Grace, and His authority in sending Him to gather the elect with this same love made him stand in awe, even suffering for it.

Truth sets us free, and he had both love and truth.

Love without truth is not love.

In fairness, one (love) does not cancel out the other (the soteriological drive, i.e. truth) at the very least in the case of Paul, which is our subject.

- Peace

You seem to be implying that Arminians can't really be motivated by love. I, on the other hand, acknowledge that the distinction between Cal/Arm wouldn't negate the aspect of love thus both may be motivated.

Explain something to me. How can Paul, who is being inspired by God to write, express so much love and concern for the hardened/cut off Jews, which some Calvinists claim God doesn't love because he didn't choose them? Does Paul love them more than God?

Paul writes, "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel."

That to me sounds like a motivation of love despite their destination (whether free will is involved or not).

 

[HankD]

Yes. So you agree God does then use them, as He chose to do so? The rewarding follows logically this choosing. The fact is that God did choose those who preach, in that, according to His plan, they are essential to fulfilling this, as it accomplishes His purposes, and He chose them to be essential in this.

I'm certain there are some things that Calvin may not recognize, and I have nothing readily to quote that anyone has attributed to Calvin as saying, so this is pure speculation until proven otherwise.

However, I think many who elaborate on DoGs, discover and present things that never came to his mind.

Knowing that God has His elect, waiting to be saved, how does this attribute to our confidence in our own evangelistic efforts?

Paul endured persecutions and suffering, having this knowledge, which kept him going.

P4T here is a website with the English text of Institutes of The Christian Religion if do not already have the writtings or access thereof.

Be forewarned - it is a weary, sleepy read. Make a pot of coffee if you are so inclined.

HankD

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

P4T here is a website with the English text of Institutes of The Christian Religion if do not already have the writtings or access thereof.

Be forewarned - it is a weary, sleepy read. Make a pot of coffee if you are so inclined.

HankD

Apparently Hank....it is a sleeper cause you didnt attach it.

 

[BobinKy]

I know P4T wants the link so he can begin reading ASAP, so here is an online English text of John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (Christian Classics Library).

The Institutes of the Christian Religion: English, Latin, and French (9 vols.)

Calvin's Complete Works

A little humor to lighten the read



...Bob

 

[quantumfaith]

Personally, I think it was love that motivated Paul's evangelical efforts, not his soteriological perspective in regard to the Cal/Arm distinction. If it wasn't then it was "a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

You seem to be implying that Arminians can't really be motivated by love.

Bro. Skandelon,

This thought has never crossed into my mind concerning the Arminian brothers, neither upon hearing this do I believe it to be true concerning them. I am sorry you feel this way.

I would like to reconcile this before moving forward in answering other things.

- Grace, peace, and mercy to you

 

[Skandelon]

No problem. I understand.

But, I am interested in your perspective regarding my question: How can Paul, who is being inspired by God to write, express so much love and concern for the hardened/cut off Jews, which some Calvinists claim God doesn't love because he didn't choose them? Does Paul love them more than God?

Paul writes, "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel."

 

[preacher4truth]

No problem. I understand.

But, I am interested in your perspective regarding my question: How can Paul, who is being inspired by God to write, express so much love and concern for the hardened/cut off Jews, which some Calvinists claim God doesn't love because he didn't choose them? Does Paul love them more than God?

Paul writes, "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel."

Well, those who believe what you said would have to explain that one. I don't believe that at all.

Again, please remember, I am not a calvinist (but if questioned on what I believe, I would be lumped in with them, then the assuming I buy into all of it begins). Infralap? Perhaps, but I don't believe what you just stated myself personally. Whoever believes that, I would like to hear their argument.

I feel you think I believe these things, and others, and as a brother, I ask you to give me the benefit of the doubt. I think I take a lot of flak, believing most of it is based upon assumption, not on what I truly believe.

I just see Paul saying by paraphrase "Man, there are a lot of Gods elect waiting to hear, they are His chosen and they are out there, I don't care if they beat me, imprison me, they are out there, and I am going to preach them the message of the Gospel, and they will be saved!"

This motivated me too. And also in love to do so. Confidence in Him, and that He has those who are His waiting to hear, and presenting it to them in love for God, and of their souls.

I've heard too many times calvinists are not evangelistic because of their views on the election. I beg to differ, though some would help facilitate this notion, and if they do, they are wrong. But, not here.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No problem. I understand.

How can Paul, who is being inspired by God to write, express so much love and concern for the hardened/cut off Jews, which some Calvinists claim God doesn't love because he didn't choose them? Does Paul love them more than God?

What?!? Scan, & what Calvinist told you this...... In my eyes he would be a very shabby one. Besides, weren't you one at one time & didnt you say your brother is still one. So tell my, what do you & your brother believe.

 

[HankD]

Apparently Hank....it is a sleeper cause you didnt attach it.

You are right! z-z-z-z-z-z.



HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

If Paul had been a Calvinist he would not have become a missionary as he would have believed that God had already elected those he wanted to save and thus God would need no help from him, Paul.

This was the argument Calvinist used against the first efforts of mission work.

Calvinists have been in the lead in missions......as was Paul.
the great commision is Go!

 

[Iconoclast]

Hank,

Wouldn't it be better to debate the biblical tenents of the gifts of grace and the absolute sovereignty of the living God without attaching to them the names of dead men especially in a public forum with "seekers" coming and going?


HankD

yes ..agreed Hank.... I have tried this in times past and then people claim that we are avoiding a label and being deceitful...
I agree with discussing primarily on biblical merit...but have found that labels and terms say alot in a few words.....

If we say trinity.....people get it instead of having to explain in great length that each divine person constitues the Godhead.

I am equally comfortable using D.O.Grace etc....but would prefer to get to scripture.

I just think we are stuck using labels.