Not under the Law

[HankD]

What needs to be defined is a persons view of what the Law is.
If you see it only as the Ten Commandments then the Law was just that.
To the Jews the Scrifices were the Law, scritpure was the LAw, Christ fulfilled the sacrifices.

The law is for the unregenerate:

1 Titus 1
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.​

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

HankD​

 

[HankD]

Hank, how does one tell if they are in a cesspool?

By the Spirit of God:

John 16

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

HankD​

 

[percho]

In what manner was the law a schoolmaster to being Paul to Christ?

 

[MB]

Rom 6:14, 15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid

Gal. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law

How are we not under the law and still subject to it at least in some part based on 1Cor 14:34 as Paul points out? Again what do you understand is meant by not being under the law?

The Authur of Hebrews wrote;
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

If we indeed are perfected forever as stated here. The Law then has no effect. We are complete in Him.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

We have put off the body of sin, and put on the righteousness of Christ.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This is spiritually speaking, we are not under the Law. The flesh is another matter. It sins because sin still dwells there. We have to train the flesh but it will never be perfect until it is made new.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

The law is for the unregenerate:

1 Titus 1
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.​

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

HankD​

Hank,
All verses saying we are not under law, are saying we are not under law as a principle means of salvation. We are not lawless.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

 

[Tom Butler]

It appears to me that the New Testament makes clear the relationship of the law and the gospel.

Paul described it as a schoolmaster, to demonstrate that we are incapable of keeping it perfectly; therefore it it is impossible to please God by keeping it perfectly. That is, it's impossible to keep it perfectly. It teaches us that the law cannot give us hope, only the gospel.

This is reinforced by James 1:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. So unless you are perfect, you're out of luck.

Even those commands given by Jesus in the gospels, and those given by the NT writers are to confirm what we know--we can't keep them perfectly. Our hope of salvation lies in Jesus Christ alone.

Paul cited himself as a living example. The things he should do, he didn't. The things he shouldn't do, he does. So he cried out "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24

Then he answered his own question at the beginning of Romans 8 "There is therefor now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus."

 

[JesusFan]

It appears to me that the New Testament makes clear the relationship of the law and the gospel.

Paul described it as a schoolmaster, to demonstrate that we are incapable of keeping it perfectly; therefore it it is impossible to please God by keeping it perfectly. That is, it's impossible to keep it perfectly. It teaches us that the law cannot give us hope, only the gospel.

This is reinforced by James 1:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. So unless you are perfect, you're out of luck.

Even those commands given by Jesus in the gospels, and those given by the NT writers are to confirm what we know--we can't keep them perfectly. Our hope of salvation lies in Jesus Christ alone.

Paul cited himself as a living example. The things he should do, he didn't. The things he shouldn't do, he does. So he cried out "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24

Then he answered his own question at the beginning of Romans 8 "There is therefor now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus."

Think Christians have a hard time understanding that we are indeed "dead" to the law, but alive in Christ!

Truely free now to obey the Lord out of love for Him and thankful fotr His saving grace!

God gives us His Spirit in order to live out the life we now have in Christ, and paul would ask us "why start in the Spirit, in faith, and than try to keep the Law?"

 

[JesusFan]

Hank,
All verses saying we are not under law, are saying we are not under law as a principle means of salvation. We are not lawless.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

We obey the law of Christ, by living in power of Holy Spirt...

The law convicted of our sinfulness, lead us to jesus Christ...

Now under NEW Lord, jesus, not the Law!

 

[HankD]

Hank,
All verses saying we are not under law, are saying we are not under law as a principle means of salvation. We are not lawless.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Of course we are not lawless but have the love of God ruling over us enabliing us to serve Him and producing the fruit of the Spirit to His glory.

We are not under the law of moses as a principle of life either other wise get yourself a Talmud because you have 613 commandments to keep 24/7 or receive a curse. Why would anyone want a curse after receiving the ultimate blessing of the grace of God, eternal life?

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.​

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.​

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:​

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.​

If you love your neighbor you will not lust after and steal his goods or his wife, you won't kill him, do him any ill, or bear false witness against him, etc...​

If you love God you won't worship other gods, blaspheme Him, etc...​

It is not even serving God's law with your mind that brings salvation but the grace of God, of which I am sure you are well aware.

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

jf

We obey the law of Christ, by living in power of Holy Spirt...

The law convicted of our sinfulness, lead us to jesus Christ...

Now under NEW Lord, jesus, not the Law!

Think Christians have a hard time understanding that we are indeed "dead" to the law, but alive in Christ!

Truely free now to obey the Lord out of love for Him and thankful fotr His saving grace!

God gives us His Spirit in order to live out the life we now have in Christ, and paul would ask us "why start in the Spirit, in faith, and than try to keep the Law?"

JF.....in these verses....Paul is explaining to Jews primarily not to listen to the judiazers...who were saying....new believers had to keep the ceremonial law to be saved!...He is not saying that the ten commandments are no longer in effect!

let me put it another way JF......which of the ten commandments are we "free" to break?

How do you love God?

9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Hank posted from romans 13;

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.


Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

What Paul quotes is a summary of the ten commandments....love is a fulfilling of the law......love is not ignoring the law,and substituing some new age, feel good sentimentality.
Hank correctly states this;

If you love your neighbor you will not lust after and steal his goods or his wife, you won't kill him, do him any ill, or bear false witness against him, etc...


If you love God you won't worship other gods, blaspheme Him, etc...[/QUOTE]


Think about it. The etc, Hank writes about is the ten commandments

The ten commandments......not under Moses......but under Christ!

JF...you said;Now under NEW Lord, jesus, not the Law!
JF ....this statement as written is called antinomianism......do a google search on it...let me know what you find.

Tom.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It appears to me that the New Testament makes clear the relationship of the law and the gospel.

There was law and grace, law and gospel in the OT also.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed

 

[freeatlast]

Think Christians have a hard time understanding that we are indeed "dead" to the law, but alive in Christ!

Truely free now to obey the Lord out of love for Him and thankful fotr His saving grace!

God gives us His Spirit in order to live out the life we now have in Christ, and paul would ask us "why start in the Spirit, in faith, and than try to keep the Law?"

Let me ask a question here. By what you have written are you saying that those of the OT did not obey Him out of love and were not thankful for saving grace?

 

[freeatlast]

By the Spirit of God:

John 16

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

HankD​

Hank verses 8 and 9 is speaking mostly of the lost, not the saved. The only part for the believer is the part about righteousness. So my question is how does the Spirit speak to us about righteousness? Does He point us back to the commandments or does He just give us some divine understanding without any reference to the commands?

 

[freeatlast]

The Authur of Hebrews wrote;
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

If we indeed are perfected forever as stated here. The Law then has no effect. We are complete in Him.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

We have put off the body of sin, and put on the righteousness of Christ.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This is spiritually speaking, we are not under the Law. The flesh is another matter. It sins because sin still dwells there. We have to train the flesh but it will never be perfect until it is made new.
MB

MB what do you mean when you say "we are not under the Law" is speaking spiritually?

 

[HankD]

Hank verses 8 and 9 is speaking mostly of the lost, not the saved. The only part for the believer is the part about righteousness. So my question is how does the Spirit speak to us about righteousness? Does He point us back to the commandments or does He just give us some divine understanding without any reference to the commands?

Mostly to the lost Mel?
Have you never been convicted of sin since you have been saved brother?

"love one another" and "believe on Him who sent me", these are at least two of the commandments we are under.

Also I am led of the Spirit. He has never led me into sin. I do that on my own if and when I respond to the lusts of my flesh and when I do, I put myself under the law of sowing and reaping and then yes the law comes into play and I have fear.

RE:Your question "how does the Spirit speak to us?"

You already know that Mel because all the children of God have ears to hear Him, though they can refuse.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:​

Let me put it another way, I don't need the law of Moses or the Ten Commandments to tell me when I have sinned, when the Spirit of God is grieved, He lets me know.​

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.​

We are not under the law as a principle of life. We have the indwelling Spirit of God to guide and correct us.​

If a person has apage love - His love infused in our hearts for God and our fellow man, we don't need the external law written on tables of stone we have an internal law of agape love written in our hearts.​

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.​

We are they who have the indwelling Law of Christ through being born of the Spirit, it is the lawless who need the law of Moses.​

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers...​

I understand where people are coming from when they repond to evil in the midst of the church(es) by trying to stress commandment keeping.​

But it's the wrong approach - sanctification does not come via the law or the Ten Commandments.​

Galatians 3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
...
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

Our sanctification is a transformation through the Spirit of of God as we behold the Glory of Jesus Christ in the word and with prayer and meditating upon His glory.​

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed (Grk - metamorphoo) into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.​

If we were under the law of Moses for eternity it could never bring this transformation.​

HankD​

 

[freeatlast]

The Spirit uses the commands to point to. There would be no conviction wihtout the commands. He always points to God's standards.

 

[HankD]

The Spirit uses the commands to point to. There would be no conviction wihtout the commands. He always points to God's standards.

We agree Mel, when necessary and He sees fit but even then we are under the control of the Spirit and not the commands.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.​

HankD

 

[HankD]

If you love God you won't worship other gods, blaspheme Him, etc...
Think about it. The etc, Hank writes about is the ten commandments

Not really. Its our love for God.

Here is a rhetorical question:

When was the last time you worshipped Buddha or Krishna?

You don't? Why not?

Because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, His enlightenment and your love for God - or the Ten Commandments and the death threat?

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.​

We are indeed keeping the commandments but it is because it is motivated by this love (agape) and not the fear engendered when "under the law".

Indeed immature babes in Christ or "carnal" christians often have this fear because they are not walking in the light.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

The Spirit uses the commands to point to. There would be no conviction wihtout the commands. He always points to God's standards.

The Spirit uses all scripture to give us a way to articulate what He is teaching. Without the Spirit the scriptures are just letters on paper.

We agree Mel, when necessary and He sees fit but even then we are under the control of the Spirit and not the commands.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.​

HankD

Good point Hank; you've made several good points, IMO.

 

[HankD]

Let me ask a question here. By what you have written are you saying that those of the OT did not obey Him out of love and were not thankful for saving grace?

I'll answer.

Certain OT saints transcended the law by grace and received the love of God in their hearts, some even before the giving of the law and the commandments:

e.g. Joseph

Genesis 39:4 And Joseph found grace in his sight...

8 But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?​

The giving of the law had another purpose​

Galatians 3
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.​

Romans 7
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.​

Romans 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

1) ...It was added because of transgressions...
2) ...that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful...
3) ...that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God...

HankD​

 

[quantumfaith]

Mostly to the lost Mel?
Have you never been convicted of sin since you have been saved brother?

"love one another" and "believe on Him who sent me", these are at least two of the commandments we are under.

Also I am led of the Spirit. He has never led me into sin. I do that on my own if and when I respond to the lusts of my flesh and when I do, I put myself under the law of sowing and reaping and then yes the law comes into play and I have fear.

RE:Your question "how does the Spirit speak to us?"

You already know that Mel because all the children of God have ears to hear Him, though they can refuse.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:​

Let me put it another way, I don't need the law of Moses or the Ten Commandments to tell me when I have sinned, when the Spirit of God is grieved, He lets me know.​

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.​

We are not under the law as a principle of life. We have the indwelling Spirit of God to guide and correct us.​

If a person has apage love - His love infused in our hearts for God and our fellow man, we don't need the external law written on tables of stone we have an internal law of agape love written in our hearts.​

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.​

We are they who have the indwelling Law of Christ through being born of the Spirit, it is the lawless who need the law of Moses.​

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers...​

I understand where people are coming from when they repond to evil in the midst of the church(es) by trying to stress commandment keeping.​

But it's the wrong approach - sanctification does not come via the law or the Ten Commandments.​

Galatians 3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
...
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

Our sanctification is a transformation through the Spirit of of God as we behold the Glory of Jesus Christ in the word and with prayer and meditating upon His glory.​

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed (Grk - metamorphoo) into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.​

If we were under the law of Moses for eternity it could never bring this transformation.​

HankD​

Great Post!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: