Do We ALL Agree that Man is Both Depraived And Spiritual Inable To Come To God?

[JesusFan]

That in ourselves, both spiritual dead to God, and unable to even come to Him in a saving sense?

 

[webdog]

That in ourselves, both spiritual dead to God, and unable to even come to Him in a saving sense?

Nothing there I disagree with. Key being "in ourselves".

 

[glfredrick]

That in ourselves, both spiritual dead to God, and unable to even come to Him in a saving sense?

I agree... That is what the Bible states. That is why the gospel is "good news." That is EXPLICITLY what Paul writes in the first chapter of Ephesians, details in Romans, and is expressed elsewhere.

Best of luck getting many of the other persons on this board to agree. :tonofbricks:

(The use of the word "luck" was intentional.)

 

[JesusFan]

I agree... That is what the Bible states. That is why the gospel is "good news." That is EXPLICITLY what Paul writes in the first chapter of Ephesians, details in Romans, and is expressed elsewhere.

Best of luck getting many of the other persons on this board to agree. :tonofbricks:

(The use of the word "luck" was intentional.)

what is amazing to me is that there appear to be many who even would argue with you that the Bible states that man is spiritual dead now as a result of the fall!
And they also would argue that we are NOT disabled by fall, more like marred not killed off! Like man still basically 'good enough" to come to God by ourselves!

 

[webdog]

what is amazing to me is that there appear to be many who even would argue with you that the Bible states that man is spiritual dead now as a result of the fall!
And they also would argue that we are NOT disabled by fall, more like marred not killed off! Like man still basically 'good enough" to come to God by ourselves!

What's equally amazing is the fact many completely brush off the plain fact we are dead in OUR trespasses and sins that WE used to walk in...what Scriptures states quite clearly and concisely. The fall brought death, yes, but we didn't die in the fall...we died in like manner Adam did.

You have been told REPEATEDLY man is not good enough to come to God by ourselves, why do you keep regurgitating it?

 

[quantumfaith]

From all have gathered, we would all agree with salvation "being of God", no questions or disagreement that I find. I remain convinced that man plays a part relative to his "faith" and "belief", without it, as I read scripture we are unable to "please God". If my acknowledgement that man must have and express faith and belief makes me a "synergist", then so be it. If man having to have and express faith and belief means I do not accept "unconditional election", so be it.

For by grace are you saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is a gift of god. (Eph 2:8)

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6

 

[DHK]

We cannot come to God because we are "dead in our sins."
But what does that mean?
Most have a problem with that because it is apparent that a dead man can come to God.
Adam, when he sinned was declared dead. In the day that he sinned he died.
Yet, Adam, being dead, talked with God. So a dead man could talk with God.
Adam was not reconciled with God, but he could come and talk with God.

The problem that many have here is in the definition/meaning of "dead." What does it mean to be dead? "Death" means separation and that is all.
James says when the body is separated from the spirit it is dead. Death is separation.
Paul says: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.
--There is a comparison here. In as much as eternal life is being with God for all eternity; eternal death is being separated from God for all eternity. Death is separation.
The second death is the final sentencing where all unsaved will once and for all be separated from God.
In this life sin separates one from God.

Adam was separated from God, and therefore spiritually dead.
Not until God himself provided a sacrifice and the blood was shed, was Adam and Eve reconciled with God, and they were no longer dead but rather alive unto God. Blood had to be shed (Gen.3:21)

Thus in Eph.2:1, "You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins," does not mean that they Ephesians, before salvation were spiritual corpses, void of all spiritual life. It means that they were separated from God spiritually. They were able to respond. And when they did respond by faith in the gospel message they were saved, and by the Holy Spirit given life (made alive).

If man is completely lifeless in a spiritual way, then the command "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found," is an absurd command and has no meaning or sense in the Bible.
"Dead" simply means "separation" in the Bible.
Adam was dead and at the same time could communicate with God.

 

[JesusFan]

We cannot come to God because we are "dead in our sins."
But what does that mean?
Most have a problem with that because it is apparent that a dead man can come to God.

Again, calvinist affirm that man can and does see God in nature, can read bible, can hear Gospel etc...

We just state that the bible teaches us that man can do all that weven while depraived and spiritual dead in sin, its just that we cannot come to god in a spiritual sense, accept and receive jesus, as Best we can do is give mental assent, just as devil and demons can do...

We MUST have the special revelation from god in the Bible, and only once he enables us to be spiritual alive enough to place faith in jesus, will that get done!

Adam, when he sinned was declared dead. In the day that he sinned he died.
Yet, Adam, being dead, talked with God. So a dead man could talk with God.
Adam was not reconciled with God, but he could come and talk with God.

Again, see above points!
You assume we mean dead to be like a corpse, we affirm only like one internally, literally dead, no spirit awake in us, Just flash/mind!

The problem that many have here is in the definition/meaning of "dead." What does it mean to be dead? "Death" means separation and that is all.

far more than that in the Biblical definition...
In fact, its that we are spiritually bankrupt and dead before God basis for our seperation!

James says when the body is separated from the spirit it is dead. Death is separation.
Paul says: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.
--There is a comparison here. In as much as eternal life is being with God for all eternity; eternal death is being separated from God for all eternity. Death is separation.
The second death is the final sentencing where all unsaved will once and for all be separated from God.
In this life sin separates one from God.

Do you believe that we are born seperated from God due to oriiginal Sin, and us having JUST sinners natures from Adam?

Adam was separated from God, and therefore spiritually dead.
Not until God himself provided a sacrifice and the blood was shed, was Adam and Eve reconciled with God, and they were no longer dead but rather alive unto God. Blood had to be shed (Gen.3:21)

We have ours in Cross of Christ

Thus in Eph.2:1, "You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins," does not mean that they Ephesians, before salvation were spiritual corpses, void of all spiritual life. It means that they were separated from God spiritually. They were able to respond. And when they did respond by faith in the gospel message they were saved, and by the Holy Spirit given life (made alive).

means they were in their spirits non existent, ONLY were alive in spirits after jesus saved them, HS came to dwell in us

If man is completely lifeless in a spiritual way, then the command "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found," is an absurd command and has no meaning or sense in the Bible.

Not really...

message of Gospel offerred freely to all men, jesus died to atone for ALL sins, it just that apart from his elective grace getting applied to sinners, none would seek God and find Him in a saving fashion!
"Dead" simply means "separation" in the Bible.
Adam was dead and at the same time could communicate with God.

again, sinners can do "all that" yet still would die in their sins and go to hell...

Were the Pharisees alive or dead?

 

[JesusFan]

What's equally amazing is the fact many completely brush off the plain fact we are dead in OUR trespasses and sins that WE used to walk in...what Scriptures states quite clearly and concisely. The fall brought death, yes, but we didn't die in the fall...we died in like manner Adam did.

You have been told REPEATEDLY man is not good enough to come to God by ourselves, why do you keep regurgitating it?

Mainly because some refuse to accept the Biblical fact/truth that the fall of Adam wreaked us in a spiritual sense, not marred/bad/scarred literally dead

Because we re dead in our spirits IS the reason why no relationship with God!

 

[DHK]

again, sinners can do "all that" yet still would die in their sins and go to hell...

Were the Pharisees alive or dead?

That depends. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimetha (and Saul of Tarsus)--all three of them, were Pharisees. All three of them sat on that elite body of the Sanhedrin. All three of them were dead in their sins and trespasses against God. All three of them were separated from God. However, all three of them, of their own choice, put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and were gloriously saved as a result of it.

 

[webdog]

Mainly because some refuse to accept the Biblical fact/truth that the fall of Adam wreaked us in a spiritual sense, not marred/bad/scarred literally dead

Because we re dead in our spirits IS the reason why no relationship with God!

The fall wrecking havoc on us spiritually is not the same thing as being created guilty of Adam's sin. We are guilty for our sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

That depends. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimetha (and Saul of Tarsus)--all three of them, were Pharisees. All three of them sat on that elite body of the Sanhedrin. All three of them were dead in their sins and trespasses against God. All three of them were separated from God. However, all three of them, of their own choice, put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and were gloriously saved as a result of it.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The fall wrecking havoc on us spiritually is not the same thing as being created guilty of Adam's sin. We are guilty for our sin.

Whats our sin? We arent even born.

 

[webdog]

Whats our sin? We arent even born.

...hence the glaring hole in Augustine's doctrine.

 

[DHK]

...hence the glaring hole in Augustine's doctrine.

They are right, but only partially. Man does have a sin nature inherited by Adam. The Bible does teach that. "In Adam's fall, we sinned all," as McGuffey put it. I believe in the depravity of man, just not the Total Depravity of man. There is a difference. The difference can be seen in a child. You don't have to teach a child to lie, but you do have to teach him to tell the truth. Why? He is born with a sin nature--a nature that automatically leads him into sin. At the same time he is responsible for his sin. We all are. Both concepts are true. We sin because we are prone to sin. We sin because we want to sin. Both are true. And we are responsible for our sin and will some day give account for our sin.

 

[webdog]

They are right, but only partially. Man does have a sin nature inherited by Adam. The Bible does teach that. "In Adam's fall, we sinned all," as McGuffey put it. I believe in the depravity of man, just not the Total Depravity of man. There is a difference. The difference can be seen in a child. You don't have to teach a child to lie, but you do have to teach him to tell the truth. Why? He is born with a sin nature--a nature that automatically leads him into sin. At the same time he is responsible for his sin. We all are. Both concepts are true. We sin because we are prone to sin. We sin because we want to sin. Both are true. And we are responsible for our sin and will some day give account for our sin.

Oh, I agree on the sin nature...I disagree being born with a sin nature makes one a sinner, or having a sin nature means we are automatically separated from God. James 1:15 and Romans 6 are clear when sin and spiritual death occur, and 1 John 3:4 is clear on what sin is...the violation of God's law. Having a nature passed down from Adam is not violating His law while a sinner is defined as one who sins.

 

[JesusFan]

That depends. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimetha (and Saul of Tarsus)--all three of them, were Pharisees. All three of them sat on that elite body of the Sanhedrin. All three of them were dead in their sins and trespasses against God. All three of them were separated from God. However, all three of them, of their own choice, put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and were gloriously saved as a result of it.

Again, were ALL of the pharisees spiritual dead at some points in their lives?

believe the question answer is "yes Indeed" and that theones saved by grace of God were used to show to us that God indeed has an elected out remnant of jews among His people of isreal that will be granted means/grace to rpent and believe unto messiah and get saved!

 

[JesusFan]

...hence the glaring hole in Augustine's doctrine.

But NOT in that of the Apostle paul!

We are ALL born apart/way from God, NO spiritual relationship, due to our sin natures within us, thanks to the fall...

We sin because we are by nature sinners, not that we are sinners because of choice to sin...

 

[JesusFan]

They are right, but only partially. Man does have a sin nature inherited by Adam. The Bible does teach that. "In Adam's fall, we sinned all," as McGuffey put it. I believe in the depravity of man, just not the Total Depravity of man. There is a difference. The difference can be seen in a child. You don't have to teach a child to lie, but you do have to teach him to tell the truth. Why? He is born with a sin nature--a nature that automatically leads him into sin. At the same time he is responsible for his sin. We all are. Both concepts are true. We sin because we are prone to sin. We sin because we want to sin. Both are true. And we are responsible for our sin and will some day give account for our sin.

Define please what you mean by depravity/total depravity, for the Bible makes the case that all of us are indeed depraived.period!

 

[DHK]

Again, were ALL of the pharisees spiritual dead at some points in their lives?

Why are you limiting that question to the Pharisees? Were you not also?