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Does Your baptist Church "Honor" Baptisms Done By Non baptists As Valid?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JesusFan, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    I believe that baptism by immersion to show and testify to any witnesses and to the world that one has accepted and is following Jesus as their Saviour then that baptism would be accepted. The baptism need not to be executed by a pastor but it needs to be executed by another believer.

    A baptism that is done to complete or as a condition for salvation or a baptism that is done in order to become a member of a church is just a dunkin.

    Baptism is done only because you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour and you are following His command to be baptized.

    Oh, and to answer the OP. Under the facts and beliefs stated above, the church I attend would accept the baptism. ( after all if Jesus accepts it, we really don't have a choice)
     
    #41 John Toppass, Jul 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2011
  2. michael-acts17:11

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    That's a little out of context there. Paul was not transferring a church membership. The modern idea of church membership would have been foreign to him. He was joining with them in a personal manner, not as a member of a local religious institution. The text clearly states that they were afraid to be with him because they were afraid of him as Saul of Tarsus. We should never eisegete our culture & traditions into the text of Scripture. Furthermore, the text says nothing about water baptism & we should therefore not assume something into the text that is not there.
     
  3. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Yes, their first refusal to let Paul join them was their fear of Saul of Tarsus. And of course they didn't call it a "transfer of membership," as we do today. But Paul did want to join their fellowship, and it took the testimony of Barnabas for that to happen. Certainly, there's a Biblical basis for a church to determine whom it will allow into its fellowship.

    And, finally, there is no mention of water baptism in that passage. We may, however, infer it, since no one questioned its validity. That the correct baptism is important is shown in Acts 19 when Paul found some disciples of John the Baptist at Ephesus, and had them re-baptized in the name of Jesus.
     
  4. michael-acts17:11

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    Where do you see water baptism in the text? The baptism of John was water baptism. The baptism of Jesus is Spirit baptism. Paul laid hands on them & they were immediately baptized into the Spirit. They did not have to be re-baptized because the baptized didn't say the right words. It is much deeper than that.
    I've heard it preached(falsely) that John's baptism was not valid because it was only for repentance based on this passage. That would mean that Christ's baptism was not valid; especially since He did not need repentance. Baptists have been slowly going the way of Catholicism by turning the Faith into a shallow religious institution & focusing on the physical types instead of the spiritual truths they represent.

    Verse 5 says what happened; verse 6 tells how it happened. This is a common literary tool throughout Scripture.

    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
    (Act 19:5-6)

    And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
    (Joh 1:33)
     
  5. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    I do agree with you on this, BUT think main point that Apostle paul was adressing is concept of there being "schisms" withtin the Body of Christ...

    There is indeed ONLY i Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, that we who are saved ARE Baptised by HS into the Body, and that there is a common Faith/Theology once and for all delivered by God unto the saints!

    So NOT was adressing How to baptisre by water, what it means, just that believe that IF a Church is one in essentials of the fath and practice believer baptism, that would be vaslid, regardless if oficially 'Baptist" or not!
     
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    What is still amusing to me is that we can deny one admitance as a member into a local Baptist Church because of the water baptising not been done 'right" per our guidelines to membership, yet God has already accepted and placed that person by HS into "real" Church the Body of Christ!
     
  7. michael-acts17:11

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    It's a product of modern day Pharisaism. Power-hungry men are taking the Biblical truths which apply to the one true Church & applying them to their own little kingdoms. Believers must be baptized into THEIR church & faith. They are only interested in man-made unity that they can control.

    It would be interesting to conduct a survey of how many times pastors reference water baptism into their church vs spiritual baptism into the Body of Christ. The same self-called preachers of personal preferences claim the authority to proclaim another person's baptism as invalid. What ungodly arrogance. They set themselves up as high priests over God's people; passing judgment that only Christ has the authority to pass. They will have MUCH to answer for when they stand before God. I can hear it now. "But, but, but YOU called us to it! What do you mean we were all priests under the High Priesthood of Jesus? We HAD to lord over them, how else would your people have known right from wrong without US?"
     
    #47 michael-acts17:11, Jul 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2011
  8. bobbyd

    bobbyd New Member

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    I dealt with this when I served in AR, apparently since the AR Baptist State Convention has in it bylaws that a member church does not recognize "alien immersion", personally I never heard that term until I moved up there. For me personally, if the baptism was done by immersion as a public profession of faith after becoming a Christian, I see no reason to go through the motions again. But if the baptism was by sprinkling or for salvation purposes, you have another set of worms there that need to be worked out first.
     
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    I would reserve the right for each local Church to set membership guidelines, do think that immersion is the "preferred" method, do see it as a symbolic sign externally to inward work already done by God, but just think "funny" we say other Non baptist churches that practice believers immersion baptism as "not valid!"
     
  10. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    As you can guess, I see it differently. The 12 men in Acts 19 were disciples of John the Baptist, but had never heard of the Holy Spirit, nor had they ever believed in the Lord Jesus. So Paul set them straight, and once they heard of and believed in Jesus, they were baptized--water baptized; believers baptism, just as Jesus had commanded in his Great Commission. Only then did the Holy Spirit come on them.

    We have a similar situation in Acts 8, where the Samaritans had believed in Jesus, had been baptized in His name, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. Peter and John went down there to check things out, and once they laid hands on the new converts, the Holy Spirit fell on them.

    In both situations, water baptism and Spirit baptism (or filling, or the gift of) came after belief in Jesus, and water baptism in His name.
     
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Michael, I understand that you are coming at this from a different perspective from me, but I would not ascribe sinister, un-Christian motives to you or what you believe. You may have specific individuals in mind when you label some as Pharasaical, power-hungry. self-called, ungodly, arrogant, etc But it comes across as a blanket personal attack on those who see scripture differently from you. And that's all this is--a difference of opinion over what scripture teaches. It should not descend to the level you have taken it.
     
  12. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Even though i am a "baptalcostal" would NOT take theology from Acts, as it is a transisition Book showing to us the change from Old to new Covenant Dispensation, so would tend NOT to get my Biblical theology mainly from Acts......
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Where you start determines where you end up.

    I'm assuming you're basing what you posted on I Cor 12:13, which you see as baptism BY the Holy Spirit into the Universal Church, which you describe as the Body of Christ.

    I'm basing my comments on the correct translation of one Greek preposition in that verse--"en." The KJV translates it "by." The correct translation is "in." So, it renders "In one Spirit (or spirit) we are immersed into the body (local church, such as FBC Corinth).

    Two ways to look at it. "Led by the Spirit, we are water-baptized into the local church."
    Or, "In a spirit a spirit of unity, we are water-baptized....."

    This is consistent with the events of the day of Pentecost, where 3,000 people were immersed in water; and those same 3,000 were added to the assembly at Jerusalem.

    The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost on that group of 120 in the upper room. No mention of His coming on those who were saved that day.

    I really didn't address your post completely. Do you not think any church should establish scriptural criteria for admittance to membership? Do you not really think that it is not important who performs the baptism and under whose authority? Could I come to your church and simply declare myself a member and your church have no say-so in the matter? Should the church at Corinth NOT have kicked out the member involved in fornication?

    Just curious what responsibility--and accompanying authority--you would allow the local church to have--a church Jesus purchased with his own blood.
     
    #53 Tom Butler, Jul 12, 2011
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  14. michael-acts17:11

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    So, you believe that the indwelling of the Spirit comes after baptism? That would be the logical conclusion to your interpretation. My pharisee comment is not directed at any specific person on BB, nor is it a blanket attack on anyone just because they disagree with me. It is a condemnation of our church culture which focuses on the man-empowering institution more than on the Christ-centered truth of Scripture.
     
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Can you be more specific? How does all this relate to what we're discussing?
     
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Actually, I believe that our salvation is the result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. But we're dealing in Acts 8 with clear scripture which says the Samaritans had been saved and water-baptized, followed by Peter and John's laying on of hands and the falling of the Holy Spirit on the new converts. Same in Acts 19. I see the events in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and some other places where the Holy Spirit manifested itself as a means of authenticating the gospel, and authenticating the preaching of those who carried the gospel.

    Interestingly, in Acts 10, the falling of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius and his household came before water baptism. It told Peter that the gospel was for Gentiles as well as Jews. I wonder why it didn't fall on the 3,000 at Pentecost. Or on the Gentiles at Pisidian Antioch? Or on Lydia in Philippi, or the Philippian jailer? But it did on the 12 in Acts 19 in Ephesus.

    Regarding your caustic comments, I accept your explanation. I just needed to know if I should be offended or not. I'm not.
     
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Just was saying that IF you want to try to "prove" how baptism works, both Water and Spirit versions, or how to interprete Modes of etc, basically what we are discussing on this OP, Acts NOT normitive for those discussions!

    For the Spirit comes AT Conversion, not after water baptism, and we all now are Baptized by HS in Body of Christ at moment of our covsersion...
     
    #57 JesusFan, Jul 13, 2011
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  18. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. For the most part I agree that the work of the Holy Spirit in Acts is not normative for today. As I have discussed, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was to authenticate the gospel, to establish that it was meant for the Gentiles as well as Jews, and to empower believers.

    I also agree that the Spirit indwells at conversion. But since I do not believe the Universal Church exists, I obviously don't buy the idea of Spirit-baptism into the Body. We are placed in the Body (a local church) by water-immersion.
     
    #58 Tom Butler, Jul 13, 2011
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  19. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    What about when the Apostle Paul plainly states that we are ALL baptized into the Body by the SAME Spirit?

    You don't believe that there is a Body of Christ Universal, in sense that it is comprised of ALL Christians , both those alive now, and those in Heaven?
     
  20. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I dealt with your first question in post #53.

    I believe what many refer to as the Church (Universal) is actually the kingdom, composed of subjects of the King. The New Testament knows primarily only the local church. There are some instances where the church is referred to in a generic sense, in the same way we refer to the family. But the generic family--and church--has its concrete expression only in a local assembly.

    The U-Church is a fantasy, and a useless one at that. It sends no missionaries, never assembles, never holds a Bible Study or does any of the things that a local church does.

    This is consistent with my view that baptism is an ordinance of the local church, and such immersions should be done under that congregation's authority.
     
    #60 Tom Butler, Jul 13, 2011
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