God: The Micromanager

[Luke2427]

I think we have setted the fact that "non-cals" do not believe in the exhaustive sovereignty of God.

It is clear that they only believe that God is going to work things out in the end- that God does not control the means other than that he knows they are going to happen and lets them- that, of course is not "control" by any definition.

It is clear that they believe that God did not purpose EVERYTHING- that he only PERMITS everything. That, of course is not control by any definition.

But this is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is a micromanager. He controls atomic particles and subatomic particles and they move- not just how he permits- but how he has PURPOSED they should move from eternity past.

And not one of them moves the width of an electron that God did not purpose from all eternity for it to move.

That is the only true God. Elohim cannot be a manager who delegates. He must, by very definition, be the author and sustainer and Lord of- not just everything that IS- but everything that HAPPENS. And not just in general but so specifically that no electron can make a single orbit around the nucleus of a single atom apart from his eternal purpose.

That alone can be the self-existent, Jehovah, I AM. He alone is non-contingent. EVERYTHING else that is or happens is ultimately contingent upon Him.

 

[Don]

So God is the author and sustainer of every evil act that has occurred. Your point is made. Was there supposed to be a discussion here?

 

[matt wade]

So God is the author and sustainer of every evil act that has occurred. Your point is made. Was there supposed to be a discussion here?

Yes, that sums up the evil, sinful god of extreme Calvinism. I've been told you either follow God or Satan. God doesn't sin and isn't the author of evil. I guess extreme Calvinists follow Satan.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So let me get this straight, a mouse farting in the night is God's design?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, that sums up the evil, sinful god of extreme Calvinism. I've been told you either follow God or Satan. God doesn't sin and isn't the author of evil. I guess extreme Calvinists follow Satan.

however God cannot force you to sin. Thats Fatalism. Try as they might (God & the Devil) Job would not curse God. If they made him do it, then God would not exist as we know him. He would then be a tyrant.

 

[quantumfaith]

So let me get this straight, a mouse farting in the night is God's design?

It is if one feels that God must be micro managing every "electron". BTW, there are particles of much less "constituency" than electrons.

 

[Don]

Matt - take this for the discussion point it's meant to be. There is a body of evidence, at least from the Old Testament, that shows that God does author sin.

He created Satan, knowing full well he would fall and work evil. He hardened Pharoah's heart. He gave permission to Satan to work evil upon Job. He ordered the destruction, down to the last breathing being, of the Hittites, Amorites, and others (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

I'm not saying Luke and the Calvinists are right. I'm saying there's actually a lot more that needs to be fully examined, held up to study, and discussed before final decisions are made. God is not [the author] of confusion; scripture doesn't say He's not the author of sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

I am with Luke on somethings, in that, I certainly think there have been, are and will be events that God specifically "ordains" to occur.

 

[Don]

however God cannot force you to sin. Thats Fatalism. Try as they might (God & the Devil) Job would not curse God. If they made him do it, then God would not exist as we know him. He would then be a tyrant.

And I wish I'd read this before I posted my response. Well put.

 

[quantumfaith]

Sure Luke, these things are "in control" as they must all exist within the parameters established by God himself.

 

[freeatlast]

So let me get this straight, a mouse farting in the night is God's design?

Crass and unbecoming.

 

[Winman]

Luke is correct that God is micromanaging everything.

Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jesus said here that a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unless God allows it. So surely he is in complete control of all events that take place. Jesus also said that the very hairs of our heads are ALL numbered, so God's sovereignty extends to the smallest detail.

But what Jesus said next is where Luke and many Calvinists err.

Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

You will see Calvinists exclaim over and over that we are worthless scum all deserving of hell fire, so it is just for God to pass over the majority of mankind and send them to the lake of fire.

But that is not what Jesus said. He said we are of "value". We may be worthless (actually we are not) scum, but we are still of much value to God. This is why Jesus died for all men, not just a few.

Who created man?

Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus created man. Do you not think the Father cares about Jesus's creation?

God is not a tyrant, he is a loving Father. And a loving Father cares for and feels responsibility for his creation, just as we naturally care and feel responsibility for our children, unless there is something seriously wrong with you.

Luke and a few others are HUGE on God's sovereignty, but they are miniscule on God's love for his own creation. They do not have a balanced view. Jesus did show that all things are in complete control by God, down to the very hairs on our head. But he also said we are more valuable than many sparrows.

 

[Luke2427]

So God is the author and sustainer of every evil act that has occurred. Your point is made. Was there supposed to be a discussion here?

What madness would you prefer to believe Don?

That God is NOT in control of evil???

That all the evil that ever happens is overturning God's plans for this present age????????

God is not the proximate author of evil- but that God INTENDED for it to happen and brings it to pass by secondary causes for his own eternal purposes is rationally and Scripturally and theologically indisputable.

 

[preacher4truth]

What madness would you prefer to believe Don?

That God is NOT in control of evil???

That all the evil that ever happens is overturning God's plans for this present age????????

God is not the proximate author of evil- but that God INTENDED for it to happen and brings it to pass by secondary causes for his own eternal purposes is rationally and Scripturally and theologically indisputable.

AMEN!!! So there is discussion here, contrary to Dons premise! :thumbsup:

- Peace

 

[Don]

AMEN!!! So there is discussion here, contrary to Dons premise! :thumbsup:

- Peace

Preach, do me a quick favor: Please re-read Luke's OP. Maybe you're getting something out of it that I'm not. What Luke presented was, by its verbiage, a settled issue. Where was the room for discussion in Luke's OP?

Then take a look through the rest of the thread, and see who's been doing the most to turn this into a discussion.

Then feel free to come back and make remarks.

 

[Don]

What madness would you prefer to believe Don?

That God is NOT in control of evil???

That all the evil that ever happens is overturning God's plans for this present age????????

God is not the proximate author of evil- but that God INTENDED for it to happen and brings it to pass by secondary causes for his own eternal purposes is rationally and Scripturally and theologically indisputable.

I invite you to read the rest of my comments throughout the thread, Luke.

 

[preacher4truth]

Preach, do me a quick favor: Please re-read Luke's OP. Maybe you're getting something out of it that I'm not. What Luke presented was, by its verbiage, a settled issue. Where was the room for discussion in Luke's OP?

Then take a look through the rest of the thread, and see who's been doing the most to turn this into a discussion.

Then feel free to come back and make remarks.

Already over with Don.

Others have made discussion on this, so there must be room.

I enjoy the discussion. Perhaps then others and myself are getting out of it that you are not.

- Peace

 

[Don]

Luke is correct that God is micromanaging everything.

Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jesus said here that a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unless God allows it. So surely he is in complete control of all events that take place. Jesus also said that the very hairs of our heads are ALL numbered, so God's sovereignty extends to the smallest detail.

But what Jesus said next is where Luke and many Calvinists err.

Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

You will see Calvinists exclaim over and over that we are worthless scum all deserving of hell fire, so it is just for God to pass over the majority of mankind and send them to the lake of fire.

But that is not what Jesus said. He said we are of "value". We may be worthless (actually we are not) scum, but we are still of much value to God. This is why Jesus died for all men, not just a few.

Who created man?

Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus created man. Do you not think the Father cares about Jesus's creation?

God is not a tyrant, he is a loving Father. And a loving Father cares for and feels responsibility for his creation, just as we naturally care and feel responsibility for our children, unless there is something seriously wrong with you.

Luke and a few others are HUGE on God's sovereignty, but they are miniscule on God's love for his own creation. They do not have a balanced view. Jesus did show that all things are in complete control by God, down to the very hairs on our head. But he also said we are more valuable than many sparrows.

But this doesn't address the fact that *MOST* of His creation will reject Him. What does God do with those that reject Him?

 

[preacher4truth]

But this doesn't address the fact that *MOST* of His creation will reject Him. What does God do with those that reject Him?

They don't go to Hell for rejecting Him do they? Weren't they already headed there in the first place?

No one goes to hell for rejecting Christ, they simply do not stop their progression toward there by the Only Name under Heaven that can save them. Thus, they receive justice, the same thing they would receive prior to rejecting Him.

- Peace

 

[freeatlast]

But this doesn't address the fact that *MOST* of His creation will reject Him. What does God do with those that reject Him?

He casts them into hell while getting no pleasure out of it.