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The Contextual Israel in Romans 11:26

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Aug 2, 2011.

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  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    National UNREGENERATED Israel was a type througout the Old Testament of the NATIONAL REGENERATED Israel that will be saved according to covenant promise to the "fathers" when Jesus descends from heaven (Rom. 11:25-28).



    Note that there are NO GENTILES used to explain and demonstrate verses 6-13 as the true spiritual Israel are ethnic TWICE BORN ethnic Jews. It is TWICE BORN ethnic Jews that constitute the Jewish "remnant" in every generation and it is TWICE BORN ethnic Jews that constitute the "saved" Israel at the time of Christ's return.

    Note that the Salvation of Gentiles is merely an interlude between God's past work of redemption of ethnic Jews as a "remnant" and God's yet future redemptive work of ethnic Jews as "all Israel" at a specified time in the future.

    Here is where your theory falls completely apart. Paul specifices there will be a specific time when God returns to Israel in direct contrast to his redemptive work among the Gentiles in verse 25. The term "Israel" in verse 25 cannot possibly refer to the "remnant" as the "Israel" in verse 25 refers to what has been CUT OFF in verse 24 and has yet to be grafted in "again."

    Furthermore. the exact time when this cutting off ends and the grafting in begins is explicitly stated in verse 25 to be "until the times of the fullness of the Gentiles be COME IN." That has not yet happened.

    Furthermore, the exact time when this cutting of ends and the grafting in begins is explicitly stated in verse 25-27 to be when "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins    ." This "Israel" cannot possibly be either the "Gentiles" that do "come in" in verse 25 nor can it be the "remnant" as this "Israel" was still considered to be the PRESENT TENSE "enemies" of the Gentiles when Paul penned these words - v. 28.

    Hence, your whole interpretative basis is false as your whole interpretative basis is pitting one truth against another truth when both are true. It is not a either or but both. There is no salvation for any Jew that remains ONCE BORN but there is for ethnic Jews who are TWICE BORN. There is now TWICE BORN eithnic Jewish "remnant" which serves as proof that God's turning away from ethnic Israel is only temporary "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" and then He returns to the redemptive promises given to the "NATION" of Israel in distinction from the "NATIONS" and "all Israel will be saved" precisely when Jesus comes back from heaven (Acts 3:19-21).

    19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
     
    #61 Dr. Walter, Aug 24, 2011
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    The Type, National Israel according to the flesh, they were not the Children of God, and no promises were made to them who are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    The Election of Grace within the National Israel did receive the promises of Rom 9:4, so says Paul Rom 11:7

    7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    The Election, which has always been a very small remnant is Israel also a different Israel than the Corporate Nation. Thats why Paul says Rom 9:6

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
     
    #62 savedbymercy, Aug 24, 2011
  3. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    All you can do is repeat what has been disproven and babble. Why not try something new and provide some substantial response to to the evidence placed before you????

     
    #63 Dr. Walter, Aug 24, 2011
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    No its truth, but its exposing all your error you been teaching and shall be held accountable for before God. Everything I am witnessing ti is substantiated by scripture.
     
    #64 savedbymercy, Aug 24, 2011
  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    You are giving a witness but not the witness of God's Spirit as God's Spirit would never give witness to your errors because He is the Spirit of "truth" not error!
     
    #65 Dr. Walter, Aug 24, 2011
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Rom 11:7

    7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    That which Israel the nation sought after, was favour with God as per Rom 10:3

    3For they [National Israel] being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    National Israel was Ignorant of God's Righteousness, just as the heathen gentile nations were. They, just as other idolater's, went about establishing their own righteousness, being Ignorant to God's righteousness.

    Again, this was not the Israel God made promises to, the promises were made to the Election Israel. Other than the Election Israel [ Israel of Promise] the rest of the Nation were blinded [ By God]

    The word blinded is the greek word: poroo and means:

    to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus
    metaph.

    to make the heart dull

    to grow hard, callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding

    This was foretold long ago by Isaiah, lets look at chapter 6:

    8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

    9And he said, Go, and tell this people [ National Israel], Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

    10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    This was God's foreordained purpose for National Israel, except for the Election Israel.

    In other words, National Israel, or Corporate Israel was a cast away to God, for God only cared about Elect Israel within Her.

    Paul reiterated the same purpose of Isiah here Acts 28:25-28

    25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

    26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

    27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    This is a curse if I never saw one, God never had any intention of saving the whole Nation of Israel corporately, but Israel of Election[A Small Remnant], and the rest of the Jews were to be blinded.

    And us gentiles should not get lifted in pride, because the same goes for us, God is only focusing on a Chosen Remnant amongst us as well, and the rest are blinded.
     
    #66 savedbymercy, Aug 27, 2011
  7. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Wonderful exposition! However, why did you stop at verse 10? Why didn't you go on to verse 11?? I will tell you why! If you would have gone on to verse 11 your APPLICATION of your wonderful exposition would have been EXPOSED as false.

    How can I prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt? Look at the pronouns in verse 11 and it is the same Israel you defined as NATIONAL Israel that is the subject of verse 11 also and I quote:

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Tell me, who are "they" which stumbled in verse 11???

    Tell me, who are "they" that Pauls says "GOD FORBID" that "they should fall" in verse 11?

    You answer those two questions honestly and your whole application to a SPIRITUAL ISRAEL CONTAINING ALL THE ELECT IS EXPOSED AS FALSE.

    Why? Because you assert the very thing Paul denies in the strongest terms possible "GOD FORBID." You claim that NATIONAL ISRAEL will fall and did fall utterly and forever but Paul claims that the VERY SAME ISRAEL that stumbled in verses 7-10 is the VERY SAME ISRAEL that will not utterly fall!

    However, will you be honest with the pronouns in verse 11? I doubt it very sincerely as your whole theory will fall if you are honest enough and brave enough to deal with verse 11 truthfully.
     
    #67 Dr. Walter, Aug 27, 2011
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    The whole Nation of Israel was seeking salvation by their works Rom 10:1-4, they were in error as most false religions of the world are today, seeking salvation by their own efforts. They even had a faulty understanding of the work of Christ the Messiah, they did not understand that the salvation He promised was salvation from Spiritual enemies. There was a small remnant that did i.e

    Lk 1:67-79

    67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

    69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

    70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

    75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

    77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

    79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

    Even as back then, so it is right today, National Israel hopes in salvation by the keeping of the Law. Yet there has always been a Elect Remnant [ who is also called Israel] who seeks salvation through the Faith of Christ, but the rest [ National Israel ] is blinded.

    The point is, all Gods promises are to Israel the Elect Remnant of Grace, and not to Israel the Nation. The Nation of Israel who did not obtain the promises, the Elect Remnant in that Nation, the Election of Grace, Did.
    __________________
     
    #68 savedbymercy, Aug 30, 2011
  9. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    I didn't think you would be honest enough to deal with verse 11! The pronouns in verse 11 demand that the SAME ISRAEL that you define as NATIONAL ISRAEL in verses 7-10 of your own expositon is the SAME ISRAEL that Paul says "GOD FORBID" that they should utterly fall in verse 11, and that verses 12-28 speak of the very SAME ISRAEL.

    You are simply wrong and too proud to admit it or you simply will not be honest with Romans 11.

    I will tell you a little secret. Anyone who responds to a text by ignoring it and then by pitting other scripture against it is admitting they understand NEITHER the scripture they ignore or the scripture they are using to pit against it. Scripture harmonizes and the person who understands the scripture does not need to ignore or pit scriptures against scripture. That person can simply stay with the context and explain it by use of the context. YOU CAN'T DO THIS.
     
    #69 Dr. Walter, Aug 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2011
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    I am going verse by verse if you have not noticed, and I will get to vs 11. The thing is, so far you have said nothing to disprove anything I have stated so far.
     
    #70 savedbymercy, Aug 30, 2011
  11. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    If that is what you think, it is either because you have not read what I have said in the last two posts or you cannot understand what I said in the last two posts. The pronouns in verse 11 and Paul's statement in verse 11 prove that NATIONAL ISRAEL, the same Israel you describe and define in your exposition of verses 7-10 shall not utterly fall and the strongest language possible affirms they will not "GOD FORBID." YOU TAKE THE VERY OPPOSITE POSITION AS PAUL.

    If your honest with the language of verse 11, if your honest with the grammatical evidence your theory is proven to be a HALF truth and therefore error. The half truth is that the children of promise are TWICE BORN rather than ONCE born children of flesh and so all Israelites that are ONCE BORN are not the children of promise! Great - no problem. Your HALF ERROR is that NATIONAL ISRAEL when Jesus comes will be "all" TWICE BORN children of promise born again on that very day when they look upon him when he comes out of zion (Rom. 11:25-26). Verse 11 demands grammatically that the SAME NATIONAL ISRAEL or ISRAEL AS A NATION that has been a mixture of ONCE born and TWICE born in the past will be ALL TWICE BORN in the future at that SPECIFIC DAY.
     
    #71 Dr. Walter, Aug 30, 2011
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    Thats what I know, I am going verse by verse..
     
    #72 savedbymercy, Aug 30, 2011
  13. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    If you know it......then why not prove it since you left off at verse 10 and verse 11 is the very next verse???????? You can talk but can you demonstrate????
     
    #73 Dr. Walter, Aug 30, 2011
  14. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    The key to understanding the Truth is to remember Rom 9:6

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    There is a Israel [ National] and a Israel [ Election of Grace].

    The ethnic Israel was not aware of this, even paul was not until God Revealed it to Him, it had been a Mystery.

    So paul is correcting the fallacious thinking that National Israel had the Promises given to her, but that was not the case, it was Election of Grace Israel who were given the promises, and we shall see later in the study, that the Election of Grace Israel and the Election of Grace gentiles, = The Israel to which the promises were made. ​
     
    #74 savedbymercy, Sep 1, 2011
  15. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    hogwash!!!! Deal with Romans 11:11 or hang it up!
     
    #75 Dr. Walter, Sep 1, 2011
  16. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    SBG simply picks and chooses what verses he jerks out of context and then twists to fit his false theory.

    He has not been able to answer verse 11 and the pronoun relationship it has with verses 7-10 or its relationship with verses 12-28.

    He has not even tried to respond to my exposition of Romans 11:25-28 and the series of contextual problems I presented to his presumptions of that passage.

    SBG simply RUNS and JUMPS from one prooftext to another prooftext but NEVER defends those prooftexts by their immediate context! Why? Because his prooftexting is nothing but jerking texts out of context.

    He likes to call others "liars" when he himself does not deal TRUTHFULLY with the Biblical context and Romans 11:11 and Romans 11:25-26 is proof of his perversion of God's Word.

    He needs to put up or shut up. He needs to respond to the contextual based problems to his interpretations in Romans 11 or go back and restudy until he can respond reasonably and rationally instead of just calling those who can deal with the context reasonably and rationally liars.
     
    #76 Dr. Walter, Sep 1, 2011
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Thats your problem and the problem of many, that there were Two Israel's. The Physical Nation and the Small Remnant within The Nation, the Election of Grace. God called them both Israel. Now it should be easy to determine which one The Promises were made to !

    Isa 1:9

    9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

    That very small remant is Israel as well !
     
    #77 savedbymercy, Sep 1, 2011
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    So it is, whenever we see good things prophesied or promised to Israel in the OT, it is not to National Israel, but to Remnant Israel, the Elction of Grace Israel.

    National Israel had nothing but evil promised to her, as we will take a look at in vs 8 of Rom 11:8

    8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear ) unto this day.
     
    #78 savedbymercy, Sep 1, 2011
  19. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Thanks for admitting you are in error! That is exactly what you have admitted by failing to deal with Romans 11:11. Your position is only a half truth and the full truth is found in Romans 11:11 and the pronouns that demand in the strongest langauge ("God forbid") that the nation that has been TEMPORARILY rejected by God in verses 7-10 is the same nation that will be grafted back "again" when "the fullness of the gentiles be come in" (vv. 12-28).

    What you are totatly blind to is that the same salvation/grace/election that saves Gentiles and the Jewish remnant will be the same salvation/grace/election that saves NATIONAL ISRAEL at the appointed time when "the fullness of the gentiles be come in." - Rom. 11:25-28.

    Hence, we are not in a position to choose remnant Israel and Gentiles OVER National Israel but BOTH in their own predetermined time.
     
    #79 Dr. Walter, Sep 1, 2011
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Hello sbm, you may find this interesting to know:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1725605#post1725605
     
    #80 kyredneck, Sep 1, 2011
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