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If election is unconditional why would it be more difficult for the rich to be saved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Aug 6, 2011.

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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You believe rich people are damned to hell?

    It's not confusing. It's real simple. Only the living are able to make a choice. Dead men do nothing.
     
    #41 kyredneck, Aug 8, 2011
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, what you are saying is that a rich man's heart is likely to be more "depraved" or "evil" than a poor man's heart, thus making it more difficult for God's irresistible call to change?

    I'm not trying to argue against the point yet, just understand it.

    Why? If its all of God's doing what is more difficult about it?

    Is it comparable to the difference of a strong man lifting a 1 pound weight versus lifting a 2 pound weight? As if God has to work just a bit harder to regenerate a rich man's heart than that of a poor man? Is that what Jesus is referring to?

    Or are you saying, that Jesus is speaking from a "human perspective" as if people actually do have something to do with the conversion of a soul? So, from a "human perspective" it appears Arminianism is true (i.e. that you can persuade someone to believe), so I'll address these people from that perspective by referring to the difficulty they will face when witnessing to a rich person?

    I understand, but I'm asking about why it appears that Jesus says that some will choose not to come because they have more money...or that it will be more difficult for them to come because they have wealth. Why would that be a hinderance if unconditional election and effectual calling is true?
     
    #42 Skandelon, Aug 8, 2011
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    5 pages now...will someone answer Skan's question already!? :D
     
    #43 webdog, Aug 8, 2011
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Skan's [shallow] premise is that wealthy people are more likely to burn in hell than poor people are.

    My premise is that eternity is not even in consideration here in Christ's response to and about the young man.
     
    #44 kyredneck, Aug 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2011
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Of course not. I believe that Jesus is speaking of the influence that wealth has on the will of man (because I do believe in free contra-causal free will).

    Envy may provoke man's will unto salvation according to Paul in Rm 11:14. Why? Because man's will is in play.

    In the same manner, the wealth influences a man's will. It makes some people feel they can earn their way to heaven. It gives people a feeling they are better than others, and humility is needed. "You can't serve both God and mammon." Those already in service to mammon have more of a barrier to overcome...thus the comment regarding the 'difficulty' referred to by Christ.

    Ok, and if a rich man is made alive by God's effectual call and a poor man is made alive by God's effectual call what is the difference regarding the difficulty of their "enter the kingdom?"
     
    #45 Skandelon, Aug 8, 2011
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Since you do not even understand Skan's premise, I'm not sure how you can form your own.
     
    #46 webdog, Aug 8, 2011
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    God elects to apply to His chosen ones effectual Grace, can choose to have differing ways/agents to get jesus to them confirmed by gospel/signs/wonders situations etc

    @ people get Gospel, see signs/wonders, have siutaion hit, health problrms etc

    person chosen by god in Christ turns to lord in all of that
    other person stays outside the camp by own free will choice!
     
    #47 JesusFan, Aug 8, 2011
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Particular Redemption and Irresistible Calling are crucial to the proper understanding of these verses.

    'For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."1 Cor 1:26-31 (NKJV)

    It is God's good pleasure to call mostly the poor and the weak, yes, and the foolish by the world's standards, to salvation. However, on some occasions he also calls rich, strong and wise people, but not very often. The Countess of Huntingdon, who was so greatly used by God in the Great Awakening in England, used to say that she was saved by the letter M. If v26 had said, 'not any noble' she would have been lost. But because the word is 'many,' she was saved to the glory of God.

    So it is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God, but not impossible, for with God all things are possible. :thumbs:

    Steve
     
    #48 Martin Marprelate, Aug 8, 2011
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    How does this explanation reconcile with an unconditional election? You seem to argue that God chose people based on their being "unwise" or "poor." Is that right?
     
    #49 Skandelon, Aug 8, 2011
  10. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Perhaps God "chooses" people according to His divine will and we don't know why?

    It is us that have the issue with distinctions between people, and of late, as you use this to further your own argument -- you.
     
    #50 glfredrick, Aug 8, 2011
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Well, apparently, according to what Steve appears to have said, we do know at least two reasons why: Those who are "poor and weak" are more likely to be chosen, thus can you really say the election is unconditional?

    huh? I'm sorry, I don't understand this sentence.
     
    #51 Skandelon, Aug 8, 2011
  12. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    God says in His Word that He is no respector of people...

    You seem to wish to draw distinctions between types of people and use that as a wedge to further argue your point. Weird for a person who is supposedly interested in sharing the gospel with all persons.
     
    #52 glfredrick, Aug 8, 2011
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't believe God IS a respecter of people and from my perspective this verse is clearly about how wealth might affect one's will to follow Christ, not God's preference over one social class. I'm not arguing as if my premise is the correct one, I'm asking how this passage reconciles IF the Calvinistic premise is true.

    So, I'm not sure how you think this argument applies to me?:confused:
     
    #53 Skandelon, Aug 8, 2011
  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Ah yes, the old "it's a mystery" argument. Very nice!
     
    #54 InTheLight, Aug 8, 2011
  15. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    It's not more difficult for the rich to be saved. It's all the work of Christ, alone, only.

    The OP misses the point and lends itself to thinking in it it has found an "aha!" disproving Calvinism. It hasn't and it also misunderstands a nd misrepresents the meaning of the text and the main point: Christ must save, and He alone.

    Christ does all of the work, and all of the saving, granting repentance, granting faith, and granting life.
     
    #55 preacher4truth, Aug 8, 2011
  16. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    He's way off track in the OP.

    All the saving is on Christs power, not in mans, and it is not "more difficult" for the rich. Why? Because it is God that saves. The OP if thought through logically lends itself to man having control of the saving power. He doesn't. Ever. (not saying skan believes man saves self, just that the logical conclusion of the OP lends itself to that end)

    His interpretation misses the point and is deficient yet again in understanding a passage of Scripture.

    When Christ regenerates, He enables one to believe.

    The answer and this point is in these verses within the context:

    "When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25-26

    Saving is all on God, not man. It's all God and zero man.

    The OP is faulty and so is it's premise. He's been answered thoroughly.

    - Peace
     
    #56 preacher4truth, Aug 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2011
  17. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I've read many things by Kyredneck that cause me to shake my head. Over 40 years in the Baptist church and I have never heard anything as strange as some of his home-grown theology. Very strange!
     
    #57 Robert Snow, Aug 8, 2011
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Nevermind...he edited his original post...
     
    #58 Skandelon, Aug 8, 2011
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    PFT, you are the one who appears to "missing the point". His question is simply, if the calvinistic view of salvation is correct, then why would there be a statement about "it being more difficult for a rich man". Wealth and riches should play no role if irresistible grace and election to salvation is as the calvinist theology proposes.

    pax
     
    #59 quantumfaith, Aug 8, 2011
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    What is off track exactly? This is too vague for a response.

    So, what does Jesus mean when he makes that statement?

    How is that the logical conclusion from asking how Calvinists reconcile the meaning of this verse?

    The OP doesn't offer an interpretation. It asks for one. One in which you have not attempted to offer to my recollection.

    We all agree that salvation is impossible with people alone and that we need God. The bible also says that "with faith all things are possible," ....possible with God, but certainly not without Him! What does that have to do with the question of the OP?

    I agree, just like rebellion and choosing to reject is all on man and not on God, right! I mean, God didn't do anything to hinder man from being able to accept his geniune appeal, right? He couldn't be responsible for men not believing, that is ALL ON THEM, right?

    The premise of the OP is to presume Calvinism is true, so why would you say it's faulty?

    When did the question get answer exactly?
     
    #60 Skandelon, Aug 8, 2011
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