It's called the autonomy of the local church.
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our baptist Church Now officially belives Sign Gifts still operate!
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It's called the autonomy of the local church.
Also falls under the baptist way to honor differing viewpoints of each member!
Yes, and Baptists were historically part of the Free Church movement. ;-)
So its OK to allow diversity in a Baptist Church, some adhere to Dog some to free Will, differing timing in second coming, Gifts ceased or not etc?
MUCH of what divides and disfellowship in our churches should NOT be happening?
It's the nature of biblical interpretation. And we should not allow our differences to divide us. But sadly, they do.
Think that we ALL need to heed Apostle paul when he asks us IF cal/Arm/pre Mill/post etc died for our sins, or was it Christ and Him alone?
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Let me take a contrary position. Obviously a local church can take whatever position they want to. But if those in the local church are allowed to actively speak in tongues, it will eventually drive out those who believe it is not for today. Those who believe it ought not to be will not continue to come to the church.
By taking a stand you always divide believers. No matter how open we are to allowing for other doctrinal issues, the moment the pastor preaches a particular position about the gifts, eschatology or soteriology, the church is going to be face to face with differences.
Does NOT have to cause a division as long as ALL practice the Will of God that Apostle paul details, how to allow spiritual freedom of choice to others, and by allowing same curtesy to all, and to allow Love of God be in all and through all!
In the area of the Gifts, those spiritually mature among the Body must agree to treat each other in love and respect, and allow for diversity, as this is a Non essential!
Think allowing for freedom and diversity in this will allow growth in Church, and think as long as stay firm against them operating in service will 'appease" both sides!
Such is expected. But it's the leadership to take a firm stand and let their position be clearly known.
After that, it's up to the membership. But good leadership would allow for properly doctrinal navigation, not the messy stuffs that usually result.
Lets see,
A) a young couple say they do not belive the State has any right to be involved in marriage - so the "marry" themselves in the sight of God. Acceptable?
B) Your new pastor takes Acts 2:38 litteraly - and proclaimes a person is not fully saved until baptism
C) The Christian Ed director determines that age-segerated Sunday School is not Biblical - and he divides the church into seven SS classes- with all family members attending the same class
D) The Deacons have determined that all members must adhere stictly to keeping the Sabbath holy - thus any member who 1) eats out, 2) engages in secular enjoyment, 3) works, 4) ect; shall be put under church discipline
Yes, this church will have plenty of growth! NOT
When there were real spiritual gifts in the church...they operated in the service. It is not for us to regulate God. These churches that allow every idea and stand for very little are doomed to lukewarmness. This is nonsense. Catholics do the same. Sorry this church is going wrong.
Icono....just what are you afraid of?
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
So will your pastor state what he thinks? If he says that speaking in tongues is not of the holy Spirit but is purely a human invention, but allows those who do to speak in opposition to what he believes the Bible teaches, how can it not help but cause division. It would be the same thing if he preached that it was of the Holy Spirit and those who think it is human and emotional in origin. It will cause division.
And that is also a part of many other positions. Any way the preacher preaches those doctrines you have decided out to be completely freely held, he is going to antagonize the opposite side.
I pray it won't happen in your church. But I fear that you have sown the seeds of a split body in this stand.
If he (JF) is saying the majority believes it then how you going to have a split body....worst case, decenters leave.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
2 answers: (1) it was stated as a church that allowed the love to rule the differences; (2) The gift issue was not the only one that was mentioned.
Do you know lots of Calvinists who would be able to stay at a church where the pastor was strongly non-calvinist/arminian? Do you know lots of non-Cals who would stay at a church where the pastor preaches Calvinism?
I've just never known a church that adapted this kind of philosophy that didn't turn into a full blown charismatic congregation. (And I don't believe that charismatic is necessarily a word of faith congregation.)
Like I said, I pray they will prove me wrong.
Well...is that the direction the Church & Pastor wish to take.....Personally I would set guidelines & prove everything through Scriptures. Tongues are the least of the gifts & should have no place in the church worship & operation. Id cap it down pretty tight but I would not quench the HS by mandating that gifts are forbidden. I personally believe these things & would look to provide guidelines to churches who also do.
BTW, Martyn Lloyd-Jones also believed thus & he was a strict Calvinist. I never saw the Westminster Chapel becoming charismatic under his time there.
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EWF.....not afraid...just believe the bible.
Look at what jf is saying....
to his credit...he rules out word of faith heretics
ewf....if gifts were meant to continue, they would have....they ceased
most people who hold out for continuation are believing the falsehood.....that they have a special prayer tongue[you know, the one satan cannot understand.....lol] it is not happening....
ewf.... God has given all we need in the word.
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Tom Butler
New Member
The majority of people in my church believe in divine healing, and have no problem asking God to heal sick folks.
What we don't believe is that individual has the gift of healing. Anyone who claims to have it better be able to heal every time, or he's a fake. Or, his gift is not from God.
That said, since our church does not practice the "gifts," I'd try to run off anybody who wants to speak in tongues, or claims to have the healing gift. If a church allows such stuff from a few individuals in the name of diversity, it's asking for trouble. It will split that church wide open.
I fully anticipate somebody here on the BB will cite a case where the "gifts" were allowed, and didn't split. I'm telling you, I've seen it happen. More than once.
What we don't believe is that individual has the gift of healing. Anyone who claims to have it better be able to heal every time, or he's a fake. Or, his gift is not from God.
That said, since our church does not practice the "gifts," I'd try to run off anybody who wants to speak in tongues, or claims to have the healing gift. If a church allows such stuff from a few individuals in the name of diversity, it's asking for trouble. It will split that church wide open.
I fully anticipate somebody here on the BB will cite a case where the "gifts" were allowed, and didn't split. I'm telling you, I've seen it happen. More than once.
Tom, with all due respect, I think you totally misunderstand the allowing thing. Only the HS provides any of the gifts & that said nobody has a constant gift. IE the HS gives at will & takes away just as quickly. So nobody is the "Healer" of the church or the resident sooth sayer with any magical properties. As I said before, If you were to read Martyn Lloyd-Jones book, "Joy Unspeakable" your fears would be put to rest.
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