Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Thanks for saying exactly what I thought you were thinking. And that kind of thinking is exactly the reason why I said earlier in this thread that the 2 sides will not be able to coexist in 1 church.
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our baptist Church Now officially belives Sign Gifts still operate!
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Thanks for saying exactly what I thought you were thinking. And that kind of thinking is exactly the reason why I said earlier in this thread that the 2 sides will not be able to coexist in 1 church.
Well Put....
....I couldn't agree more! This is what I'm talking about, and it takes faith to reach this point. Those that resist this moving of the Spirit will spiritually thwart what we have found to be true and a blessing of Him.
Some believer's stunt their growth through their rigid view of what the Holy Spirit was sent to do.
It takes an open mind, and child-like faith to reach the Throne of God through praise and worship. It takes that same kind of faith to see the gifts dispersed among the believers.
I was once rigid, and my growth was stunted. I wouldn't have even qualified to be called a spiritual dwarf. The night I discovered a child-like faith, in regard to the moving of the Spirit among His people, was right up there with the night I was born again. It was sweet and special.
There is nothing wrong with emotion being interwoven with the Spiritual side of worship. The letting go of religious inhibitions, written in stone traditions, and the hardness of one's heart is the freedom that opens the door to the kind of blessings that deepens one relationship with Jesus, drawing us closer to the Father.
Heaven will not be some staunch, stoic place. It will be filled with praise and worship of the Father around the Throne, and if you don't discover this while you are here, you'll have a rude, but wonderful and amazing awakening up there!
I can hardly wait to see the expressions of some of those saints when Heaven awakens their spiritual side! :applause:
Believing, one way or the other, is personal. However, it is not for me to put another down for not believing what I've found in Jesus through His gifts and the Holy Ghost.
I will leave those who choose to believe their way alone. After all that is their belief, and it was once my belief, too. Neither my way, nor theirs, will keep us from eternity, and that is really the crux of the matter!
I am quite aware of the error of the way of those WOF followers, and that is why I wrote and published Thorn Daze. I wanted to point out to people the harm the WOF folks have on so many who are not healed as they pray and believed they should have been healed. WOF hurt me, and it took a while to see the error of their ways. However, God opened my eyes, and heart, and gave me the words for the book, and I have heard from many who have been helped by the book to escape the WOF quilt trips.
WOF has no place in the world of gifts. WOF is a manmade doctrine, that is dangerous to those who supposedly do not have the level of faith to receive healing when prayed for. The truth is God does not heal all of us. However, He gives strength to those who have unresolved thorns to cope with life and disabilities, and adapt and move on in His strength. :applause:
Shalom,
Pastor Paul :type:
....I couldn't agree more! This is what I'm talking about, and it takes faith to reach this point. Those that resist this moving of the Spirit will spiritually thwart what we have found to be true and a blessing of Him.
Some believer's stunt their growth through their rigid view of what the Holy Spirit was sent to do.
It takes an open mind, and child-like faith to reach the Throne of God through praise and worship. It takes that same kind of faith to see the gifts dispersed among the believers.
I was once rigid, and my growth was stunted. I wouldn't have even qualified to be called a spiritual dwarf. The night I discovered a child-like faith, in regard to the moving of the Spirit among His people, was right up there with the night I was born again. It was sweet and special.
There is nothing wrong with emotion being interwoven with the Spiritual side of worship. The letting go of religious inhibitions, written in stone traditions, and the hardness of one's heart is the freedom that opens the door to the kind of blessings that deepens one relationship with Jesus, drawing us closer to the Father.
Heaven will not be some staunch, stoic place. It will be filled with praise and worship of the Father around the Throne, and if you don't discover this while you are here, you'll have a rude, but wonderful and amazing awakening up there!
I can hardly wait to see the expressions of some of those saints when Heaven awakens their spiritual side! :applause:
Believing, one way or the other, is personal. However, it is not for me to put another down for not believing what I've found in Jesus through His gifts and the Holy Ghost.
I will leave those who choose to believe their way alone. After all that is their belief, and it was once my belief, too. Neither my way, nor theirs, will keep us from eternity, and that is really the crux of the matter!
I am quite aware of the error of the way of those WOF followers, and that is why I wrote and published Thorn Daze. I wanted to point out to people the harm the WOF folks have on so many who are not healed as they pray and believed they should have been healed. WOF hurt me, and it took a while to see the error of their ways. However, God opened my eyes, and heart, and gave me the words for the book, and I have heard from many who have been helped by the book to escape the WOF quilt trips.
WOF has no place in the world of gifts. WOF is a manmade doctrine, that is dangerous to those who supposedly do not have the level of faith to receive healing when prayed for. The truth is God does not heal all of us. However, He gives strength to those who have unresolved thorns to cope with life and disabilities, and adapt and move on in His strength. :applause:
Shalom,
Pastor Paul :type:
I beg to differ....if you have very good & well informed leaders, I believe it can....again you guys need to read ML-J book " Joy Unspeakable" & use it as a guideline. I think it would be allot easier than blending Calvinists & Non-Calvinists & churches have done that....I think with maturity & love. Anyway JF's Church is now in the throws of it....time will tell & Im certain he well have stories to tell.
Think from us the key points is that we have NO firm way either way, you are free to decide based on your understanding of the scripture texts, also NO "activity" while in the service, preaching the Bible still number 1!
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
With this I am out of this discussion other than reading the responses. But now you're saying that there will be nothing firm either way? What will the pastor preach about gifts? By allowing people to practice the sign gifts, he is making a firm statement. He is saying this is what we believe by what you practice.
EWF said
I am not trying to be a smart aleck, but Martin Lloyd Jones was a great preacher. But i am not reading his book as a guideline for our church. I'm just going to stay with what I believe the Bible teaches.
I would certainly stack up my leaders to anyone. There is an arrogance to saying, 'you could do it but you don't have very good leaders." I have read all that you have said about the churches you have visited and how poor you see them. So just maybe your pronouncements about how we ought to be doing things don't carry much weight with me, just as my experiences don't carry much weight with you.
Where did you get that idea from Tom? FYI, you'd be wrong to think I dont value your experience....in fact I do.
But Im a believer in Doctrines of Grace & I'm pretty sure your not. Please believe me when I tell you 2/3 of ML-J book is about warning believers to proof everything out through Scripture, Lloyd-Jones is an extremely cautious man. And I wasnt telling you Tom to use the book as a guideline....rather I was attempting to advise JF so there are no missteps. God Forbid the devil use this as a wedge to destroy still another church. I myself, if I was JF's pastor would be extremely cautious & go slowly. This pastor perhaps thinks he is growing this church by doing this but he will be in a rude awakening if he himself isnt committed to blending it correctly.....we shall see!:thumbsup:
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Thank you. That looks pretty straight on to me. Here is something I found on the passage:
"Paul told the Corinthian church: Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds (II Cor 12:12). This verse implies that extraordinary spiritual gifts were signs of apostleship. This raises the simple question: If ordinary gospel ministers also possess these gifts, then how could such abilities distinguish an apostle from other ministers? If it is true that modern charismatic ministers have the ability to heal, speak in tongues, etc, then Paul appealed to invalid grounds for confirmation of his apostleship."
From http://primitivebaptist.info/mambo//content/view/35/38/#Communion
It's a good question. I see the answer in 1Cor.12-14.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:28)
--Here Paul gives a list of the gifts. It is worth noting that they are given in order of importance: first, secondarily, thirdly, after that, then,...and the last one listed, the one of least importance is "tongues."
In this chapter Paul describes the local church as a body.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:12)
--The local church has many members, but it is one body.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (1 Corinthians 12:14-16)
--One body but many members. Each member of the body (the local church) must contribute according to the gifts and talents that God has given him. Not everyone has the same gifts. Not everyone can be the pastor (the head). Not everyone can be an eye. He says if the ear will also be an eye who would do the hearing? What if the body were all arms and no legs or feet? How would it operate? It couldn't. We all have our own talents, gifts, abilities that we each contribute to our own churches.
In chapter 14 Paul discourages the speaking of tongues because they all couldn't have that gift, though many of them wanted it. It looked like a "spiritual" gift. It was "showy." Paul said that he would rather speak in five words that people could understand than in 10,000 words in a language that people could not understand. He discouraged them from seeking after this gift.
Again, in 1Cor.12
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12:29-30)
--These are all rhetorical questions. And the obvious answer is "No." The Lord did not give multiple gifts to the average person.
This is the difference between the apostles and the common person in the church. Peter had the gift of healing (5:16), also of doing signs and wonders (5:12), speaking in tongues (Acts 2), the power over life and death (Annanias and Sapphira), etc. God gave them much power, much more than he did the average person in the church at Corinth. These signs and wonders were far greater in scope that the average church member ever had.
...with that off your chest! The term Rapture is not in the Bible, but many Baptist toss it around as if it were.
Brother, you can dissect what I say and believe until the Lord returns that your way is the ONLY way, and if it makes you feel as though you've righted a wrong, more power to yah!
As for me, I know what I've seen, and I was where you one were. I could argue the case very well, but, I never knew what I was missing until I came to this understanding.
Thank God we won't go to hell for allowing ourself to be blessed with the gifts and movement of the Holy Ghost within our life and church!
Shalom,
Pastor Paul
I met a very nice woman that told me the angel moroni appeared to her in her living room....told her the book of mormon was true.
she was sincere, and humanly speaking very nice....
I was not buying what she was selling...because it contradicts the scripture.
Roman catholic charismatics.....feel the spirit moving them...to greater devotion to the blessed lady......
I have gone into many a charismatic service...earlier on in my christian life...
wanted to search it out.....wanted all the Spirit had for me....did not want to "put God in a box"....it was all garbage and fleshly excess...
I am glad God is sovereign.....and will extract His elect from those errors...
Paul.....we are all free to believe what we want in this country.....
This verse looms in the backround;
Many lay claim to gifts....some claim to be apostles, some claim to be prophets, some pastor teachers, some popes...
Did you ever wonder about a man...who claims he is ....pope....God"s representative on earth...apostolic succession??
Do you think when he looks in the mirror that he realizes he is a fraud,and hell bound???
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I think that many who delude themselves [ start sincerely, believing that they are seeking sign gifts]. Many cults start this way...they want more than God gives in the word.
The Spirit of God has been given to protect us in the word, not outside of it.
Brother, you can dissect what I say and believe until the Lord returns that your way is the ONLY way, and if it makes you feel as though you've righted a wrong, more power to yah!
As for me, I know what I've seen, and I was where you one were. I could argue the case very well, but, I never knew what I was missing until I came to this understanding.
Thank God we won't go to hell for allowing ourself to be blessed with the gifts and movement of the Holy Ghost within our life and church!
Shalom,
Pastor Paul
I met a very nice woman that told me the angel moroni appeared to her in her living room....told her the book of mormon was true.
she was sincere, and humanly speaking very nice....
I was not buying what she was selling...because it contradicts the scripture.
Roman catholic charismatics.....feel the spirit moving them...to greater devotion to the blessed lady......
I have gone into many a charismatic service...earlier on in my christian life...
wanted to search it out.....wanted all the Spirit had for me....did not want to "put God in a box"....it was all garbage and fleshly excess...
I am glad God is sovereign.....and will extract His elect from those errors...
Paul.....we are all free to believe what we want in this country.....
This verse looms in the backround;
Many lay claim to gifts....some claim to be apostles, some claim to be prophets, some pastor teachers, some popes...
Did you ever wonder about a man...who claims he is ....pope....God"s representative on earth...apostolic succession??
Do you think when he looks in the mirror that he realizes he is a fraud,and hell bound???
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I think that many who delude themselves [ start sincerely, believing that they are seeking sign gifts]. Many cults start this way...they want more than God gives in the word.
The Spirit of God has been given to protect us in the word, not outside of it.
Amazing indeed, Amen. Herein lies the power of the gospel 'to save'.
Old Union Brother
New Member
And a second Amen to that.
freeatlast
New Member
There seems to be a serious misconception here. May I point out that the church (Corinthian church) mentioned in scripture which came behind in no gift was the most carnal in their actions.
Also the moving of the Spirit has absolutely nothing to do with the gifts or if they are operating in their fullness. In fact most evidence is that when men make claim that the gifts are being realized today, the Spirit is not the One doing the moving.
When people began to speak in what is called unknown tongues (gibberish), pray in the spirit, sing in the spirit, when they claim to be slain in the spirit, and have healings that are superficial which cannot be verified or revert back to their formal condition soon after the claimed moving then we can be sure it is not of God. The true gifts exercised as God intended bring unity, peace, and glory to God.
The gifts were never intended to be used for any personal gratification which is another evidence that when this is happening the Spirit is not the One doing what is claimed to be of God.
Heightened religious experiences does not have to mean God is involved even if the experience brought some euphoria to those involved.
Also the moving of the Spirit has absolutely nothing to do with the gifts or if they are operating in their fullness. In fact most evidence is that when men make claim that the gifts are being realized today, the Spirit is not the One doing the moving.
When people began to speak in what is called unknown tongues (gibberish), pray in the spirit, sing in the spirit, when they claim to be slain in the spirit, and have healings that are superficial which cannot be verified or revert back to their formal condition soon after the claimed moving then we can be sure it is not of God. The true gifts exercised as God intended bring unity, peace, and glory to God.
The gifts were never intended to be used for any personal gratification which is another evidence that when this is happening the Spirit is not the One doing what is claimed to be of God.
Heightened religious experiences does not have to mean God is involved even if the experience brought some euphoria to those involved.
Amen Brothers:thumbs:
There's been many sermons that have come in like a flood to me and blown me away at how the Spirit spoke DIRECTLY TO ME; LIL' OL' ME!
It's not just amazing as Tom said, it's supernatural; it's as if the sermon was tailor made just for me, to feed me what I desperately needed to have at that moment in time. Thank you Lord for 'the foolishness' of the preaching of the gospel. What a a precious privilege it is that only the citizens of the kingdom here on earth have.
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Nice to see testimonies like this bro....proves He is still actively moving amongst us who believe & are obedient.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow!:godisgood:
Praise God from whom all blessings flow!:godisgood:
What i am saying is that we will not make it a dividing doctrine, officially cease or continuation for today, and that there will not be sign gifts in practice in services but that one can feel that there are still for today..
And we do tend to be VERY suspcious of ANY one calling something as being from God unless meets stict guidelines in the Bible!
we are NOT becoimg a pentacostal churh, just one willing to be able to dialog on this issue, not forcing out those who hold opposiing views on this subject!
And we do tend to be VERY suspcious of ANY one calling something as being from God unless meets stict guidelines in the Bible!
we are NOT becoimg a pentacostal churh, just one willing to be able to dialog on this issue, not forcing out those who hold opposiing views on this subject!
All you need do is remove any verbiage prohibiting it in your statement of faith. I will not join a church that will not allow me to allow for it.
basically, we say that the Spiritual Gifts have been a cause of division in the Body, and we agree that the Bible teaches us that there is no scriptural support for them ceasing, but also that they must adhere strictly to the biblical guideline concerning their use and regulation.
The scriptures seen still as being PRIMARY and ONLY infallible source of spiritual things, and ALL gifts MUST supprt/conform to it in all matters!
Also state that this will NOT be a dividing issue, as both views can be seen as evidenced in bible by their supporters, and will allow freedom to disagree!
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