Perfect children

[freeatlast]

I answered it, go back a post or two.

Men knew what sin was before the law, Shem and Japheth knew it was wrong to look on their father's nakedness. Pharoah knew it was wrong to have Abram's wife (Gen 12:18-20), God said the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was very grievous (Gen 18:20), Lot told the men at his door not to do wickedly (Gen 19:7)... I could give many more examples.

Men knew and understood sin LONG before the law.

Then why give the law?

 

[Winman]

Let me ask you a question. If you saw an 80 year old man hobbling down the street with a cane, and three teenage boys jumped on him and started beating him to rob him, would you need a written law to know this is wrong?

I wouldn't.

 

[Winman]

Then why give the law?

Men do innately have a sense of right and wrong, but men also like to rationalize sin. Some say it is not wrong to tell a little white lie, some believe it is not wrong to lust after women besides their wife, as long as all they do is look. These are the fellows that go to the strip clubs after work.

The law leaves men without excuse.

 

[DHK]

You did not answer my question. What about those before the law was given? How did they sin without knowing the law?

The law shows our sin. Show me at any point in human history where there was no law in place.

 

[Winman]

OK folks, let's compare two verses and see if Eve had what most here call a sin nature before she actually sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

How do these verses compare?

Good for food---> Lust of the flesh
Pleasant to the eyes---> Lust of the eyes
Desired to make one wise---> Pride of life

Coincidence?

This was Eve's nature before she ate the forbidden fruit. Did Eve have a so-called sin nature before she sinned and fell?

You tell me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

FAL, the problem with your view is that you see sin as unconditionally imputed to people. People are sinners not because of any evil thing they have done, but simply for existing.

This is refuted by much scripture. Rom 9:11 tells us Esau and Jacob had DONE no evil in their mother's womb.

Exactly, but God hated Esau and loved Jacob. Both of them were born sinners and the sinful nature is clearly seen in both of them. Now there were everso many reasons why God might have hated Esau; as it is written, 'The wicked are estranged from the womb' (Psalm 58:3). The real wonder is that God loved Jacob even from the time before he was born (Jer 31:3). 'So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him that runs, but of God who shows mercy.'

But 2 Cor 5:10 tells us men will be judged for what they have DONE in their bodies, whether good or evil.

Indeed they will. 'There is none who does good, no, not one' (Psalm 14:3). All of us have inherited our sinful nature from Adam. 'What then? Are we any better than they? Not at all!' (Rom 3:9). Praise God that when we were dead in trespasses and sin He made us alive in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:5).

Adam and Eve had what you call a sin nature before the fall, they clearly had fleshly lusts and desires that are described in Gen 3:6. Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life BEFORE she ate the forbidden fruit. She was flesh. Yet God declared them "very good". It was only when they actually sinned that they became sinful.

As I said before, if Adam and Eve had a sin nature before the Fall, then God approved of it, because He pronounced it 'Very good.' If you really believe this then it is the worst kind of blasphemy in the light of texts like Isaiah 6:3 and Hab 1:13. Also, the Lord Jesus states that one does not have to commit physical adultery to be an adulterer (Matt 5:28) and that sinful thoughts come from a wicked heart and defile a man (Mark 7:21-23 etc.). In reality, of course, Adam and Eve fell first, when they were tempted, and then gave way to that temptation and ate the fruit.

Steve

 

[freeatlast]

Let me ask you a question. If you saw an 80 year old man hobbling down the street with a cane, and three teenage boys jumped on him and started beating him to rob him, would you need a written law to know this is wrong?

I wouldn't.

There are many who do not see it as wrong. So would they excape the judgement?

 

[freeatlast]

The law shows our sin. Show me at any point in human history where there was no law in place.

From Adam to Moses.

 

[percho]

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,

That all, is all. 1 day old baby 100 year old man, ALL!


Even before the law was given and sin was not imputed, man because of the sin of Adam were under the penalty of sin. Dying they surly all did die, each and every one born of a woman was at the moment born dead in trespasses and sins.

Dying they would surly die.

Whether alive or dead all are dead in trespasses and sins. Since the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ there have been those called by God who have had there life hid with Christ in God, that is they are either in Christ or they are dead in Christ, who, When Christ, our (their) life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory in the kingdom of God, the gospel Christ himself taught. God by resurrection from the dead or by instantaneous change will bring them with Christ into the kingdom of God, that is they will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[freeatlast]

OK folks, let's compare two verses and see if Eve had what most here call a sin nature before she actually sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

How do these verses compare?

Good for food---> Lust of the flesh
Pleasant to the eyes---> Lust of the eyes
Desired to make one wise---> Pride of life

Coincidence?

This was Eve's nature before she ate the forbidden fruit. Did Eve have a so-called sin nature before she sinned and fell?

You tell me.

We have been telling you and you keep rejecting it by secular reasoning. Not only that but God has already told you and you keep rejecting Him.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[DHK]

From Adam to Moses.

There is no period of time in human history where there was no law.
God gave a command, to Adam--not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam disobeyed that law that God gave.
A sacrifice was made.
We believe that sacrifices had to be made to God from that time forward.
Shortly after both Cain and Abel brought of their sacrifices before the Lord, which the Lord required. One was accepted; and one not. There was law in place.
In Genesis 6:9 we read of the law of capital punishment put in place.
In Genesis 11 the people had not obeyed God's law to go, scatter on the earth, and replenish. So God confused their languages that they would be forced to scatter themselves abroad.
At the end of the same chapter God gave a command to Abraham to leave his family and go where he tells him to go.
All throughout the rest of the Book of Genesis there is law, that are many laws of God telling what he wants people to do.
There has never been a period in human history where there hasn't been law.

 

[Winman]

In response to Steve in post #46.

I get a kick out of how you move the goalposts. So now when they were tempted they fell? What if they would have resisted the temptation, would they still be sinners?

Pretty all-inclusive theology you have, no matter what you do you are a sinner. Your view makes the words obedience and disobedience meaningless.

And it is not me that is making God responsible for sin. In your view men are born sinners and cannot possibly do other than sin. You have God condemning babies as sinners before they open their eyes and have done any evil. (Rom 9:11)

God did not condemn Adam and Eve for being tempted, he condemned them for eating the forbidden fruit.

Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commandest thee that thou shouldest not eat?

I don't see anything about being tempted here, I see God asking if they ate of the tree.

So, your explanation doesn't cut it. It was good for a chuckle though.

 

[Winman]

We have been telling you and you keep rejecting it by secular reasoning. Not only that but God has already told you and you keep rejecting Him.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

You are deflecting, Gen 3:6 tells us precisely what was going through Eve's mind. That she was deceived is irrelevant, the scriptures show she had the lust of the flesh, eyes, and pride of life.

This is what YOU and many others call the sin nature. I am simply showing from scripture that she had these qualities before she actually ate the forbidden fruit.

But also, I am making the point that God called Adam and Eve "very good" even though they had these fleshly lusts.

The point being that God does not judge us as evil for having lusts and desires, but only for what we actually perform, whether good or bad.

Newborn babies have fleshly lusts, but have done neither good or evil, and are therefore not judged as sinners.

 

[freeatlast]

There is no period of time in human history where there was no law.
God gave a command, to Adam--not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam disobeyed that law that God gave.
A sacrifice was made.
We believe that sacrifices had to be made to God from that time forward.
Shortly after both Cain and Abel brought of their sacrifices before the Lord, which the Lord required. One was accepted; and one not. There was law in place.
In Genesis 6:9 we read of the law of capital punishment put in place.
In Genesis 11 the people had not obeyed God's law to go, scatter on the earth, and replenish. So God confused their languages that they would be forced to scatter themselves abroad.
At the end of the same chapter God gave a command to Abraham to leave his family and go where he tells him to go.
All throughout the rest of the Book of Genesis there is law, that are many laws of God telling what he wants people to do.
There has never been a period in human history where there hasn't been law.

I understand that you (I am not sure who we is) may believe that but scripture teaches differently.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
There was no law prior to the law of Moses.

 

[Winman]

Being tempted does not make us evil, else all Christians are evil.

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may able to bear it.

Temptation is common to all men, including believers. If being tempted is evil, then all believers are evil. But scripture shows temptation is not sin.

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Temptation does not make us evil, in fact, it can lead to blessing if we endure it and resist it.

 

[DHK]

The point being that God does not judge us as evil for having lusts and desires, but only for what we actually perform, whether good or bad.

Newborn babies have fleshly lusts, but have done neither good or evil, and are therefore not judged as sinners.

You miss the point every time. You have a flawed definition of "sinner," because you don't accept man's sin nature. Therefore your definition discounts any definition that would give credence to that view.

A sinner is who is a sinner by nature, not simply one who sins. That is what you fail to see. A lion is one by birth. He doesn't become a lion when he starts DOING things that lions do. He is born one. Jeremiah illustrated this perfectly:

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
--The nature of the Ethiopian was to have black skin, not white. In no way could he change it.
--The nature of the leopard was to have spots, not stripes. In no way could he change it.
--The nature of man (from infancy onward) was to sin. In no way could he change it. He will always have a sin nature. He can't rid himself of it until the redemption of our bodies, or when Christ comes again. We are sinners by birth. This is what Jeremiah is teaching us, as well as a whole lot of other verses.

Thus a sinner does not become a sinner by DOING evil things. He is already a sinner. He was born that way. Now that he has a sin nature, he sins by nature, though he will still remain responsible for his sin.

New born babies have DONE neither good nor evil.
It doesn't matter what a person has done. They were born sinners. The DOING has nothing to do with it. They were born sinners. That is the teaching of Jeremiah 13:23, the teaching of which is absolute. Ethiopians beget by nature black people (black by nature). Sinful people beget sinful people (sinful by nature).

 

[freeatlast]

You are deflecting, Gen 3:6 tells us precisely what was going through Eve's mind. That she was deceived is irrelevant, the scriptures show she had the lust of the flesh, eyes, and pride of life.

This is what YOU and many others call the sin nature. I am simply showing from scripture that she had these qualities before she actually ate the forbidden fruit.

But also, I am making the point that God called Adam and Eve "very good" even though they had these fleshly lusts.

The point being that God does not judge us as evil for having lusts and desires, but only for what we actually perform, whether good or bad.

Newborn babies have fleshly lusts, but have done neither good or evil, and are therefore not judged as sinners.

No I am not deflecting. I am simply giving you scripture. What they had was volition, not a nature to sin. Just like the Holy angles all of God's creation has a volition.
As for God not judging us for our thoughts you might want to read Matt and looking on a woman to lust for her.
If you read the account in Gen. the things Eve felt was natural desires and not from an evil heart. She sinned out of being deceived.
Also for new born children you have no scripture to support your view. I agree that children may very well be covered, but there is no scripture dealing with it. The proof that they are under the curse is that they can die before they ever sin. Death is the evidence of them being cursed. The law was given so sin would increase and man would see his need.

The thing of it is our personal sins is not what makes us lost. There has only been one fall not billions of them. We do not fall because we start sinning. We prove our falleness by our sins.
The law of Moses never had a provision to save or to cause a fall. The law of Moses came with blessings and cursing's, but no provision to make one lost. We are lost because we are born in Adam. No other reason. There was one tree that could do that and that tree is gone. We are born in a fallen state because of our relationship with the first Adam and we are save because of our relationship with the second Adam (Jesus)..
All have sinned in the First Adam whether you like it or not. All we do when we sin now is add to our condemnation if we are lost, but we do not cause our own lost state.

 

[Winman]

I understand that you (I am not sure who we is) may believe that but scripture teaches differently.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
There was no law prior to the law of Moses.

Yes there was, it was the law written on the heart, the conscience bearing witness. (Rom 2:12-15)

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

How could God call these men wicked sinners if there was no law? This nearly 500 years before the law.

These men were violating the NATURAL use of the woman, and burning in their lust toward one another. (Rom 1:27)

You don't need a written law to perceive that God made men and women compatible, and that men with men, and women with women is unnatural.

 

[DHK]

I understand that you (I am not sure who we is) may believe that but scripture teaches differently.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
There was no law prior to the law of Moses.

Scripture does not teach that there was never "any law" per se.
Quite the opposite. Look at the Scripture you were quoting:

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--Clearly Paul teaches that all men have experienced death, and that all men have sinned. Sin causes death. Every man has experienced this. Even those who were before the law, which he goes on to emphasize.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
--The statement is made to show the universality of sin. It was not just under the law. It was before the law starting with Adam. Right up until the law sin was in the world. That is what it says. If sin was there a law had to be there, and death had to be there. Sin is a breaking of the law (1John 3:4).

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12-14)
--Therefore death reigned from Adam to Moses. Why? Because there was law. Sin is a transgression of the law.

 

[freeatlast]

Scripture does not teach that there was never "any law" per se.
Quite the opposite. Look at the Scripture you were quoting:

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--Clearly Paul teaches that all men have experienced death, and that all men have sinned. Sin causes death. Every man has experienced this. Even those who were before the law, which he goes on to emphasize.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
--The statement is made to show the universality of sin. It was not just under the law. It was before the law starting with Adam. Right up until the law sin was in the world. That is what it says. If sin was there a law had to be there, and death had to be there. Sin is a breaking of the law (1John 3:4).

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12-14)
--Therefore death reigned from Adam to Moses. Why? Because there was law. Sin is a transgression of the law.

No it does not say what you said. You are adding to scripture.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
That says there was a time when there was no law. The point is that even though there was a time when there was no law they were still under the curse and death proves that.
We are not lost because we sin. We are already under the curse because of Adam. Our sins only proves our state and adds to our judgment.