Lets Solve the "Worship Style/Music" debate once and for all...

[Anastasia]

I long for the day when I will hear people singing and dancing to Christian hiphop in church.

As someone in her 20s, I would say that most contemporary music I remember hearing in the last couple of years is one or more of: theologically shallow, monotonous, musically dull, or overly catering to one particular emotional effect.

Most modern Protestant churches I have been to play this stuff or do it as rock (I grow less and less fond of rock as the years go by, but I do LOVE punk cabaret, another style you won't hear). I don't think I have sung an old hymn in a church in 10 years unless you count Christmas songs.

People back in the day could write. They expressed aspects of how we, God, and the world relate in ways that I rarely hear expressed. I grew up on that. I miss that. When was the last time you heard a contemporary song about our Father's dominion over the world (now that would have been an awesome 9/11 hymn).

And yes, I miss the old school music with it sometimes.* If I still went to modern Protestant churches more often, I would say please kindly stop making my worship sound like my commute to work.

*I grew up Lutheran, until we moved when I was in high school.

 

[Salty]

LOL @ the story! One of my pet peeves is only doing the first and last verse or 1, 3, and 5 and WHAT is up with the key change every single time?!

Because, when leading them music, I loose my place when singing all 4,5, or 6 verses! Seriously.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

I long for the day when I will hear people singing and dancing to Christian hiphop in church.

Seriously? Oh well. That's why we have these discussions, don't we?

Visited a friend's mainline Protestant church some time ago. They were having some special music and we agreed to attend. Music was very old school. Sermon was ... well, I thought I was listening to PBS. Not sure if Jesus was ever mentioned. Sad.

 

[jaigner]

By the way, folks, the correct term is "stanza," not "verse." A verse is a very short phrase of poetry. A stanza is a complete strophe, which is what we sing when we sing hymns.

And there's no good reason for only doing two or three of the stanzas. The practice was unheard of until after revivalist days, when people became concerned about taking too much time.

I would rather sing the whole, concise statement of faith rather than abbreviate most of the time. I do occasionally omit them if I disagree with the theology or if they seem out of place. I believe it's best practice to sing them all.

God knows the CCM people take enough time with their music.

 

[Eric B]

I always wondered by they had to sing the chorus/refrain after every verse, instead of every other verse. That would save some time, and without cutting out any words not already sung.
The chorus after every verse always seemed awkward to me, but that's from being used to pop, where it generally is after every other verse.

 

[David Lamb]

By the way, folks, the correct term is "stanza," not "verse." A verse is a very short phrase of poetry. A stanza is a complete strophe, which is what we sing when we sing hymns.

Isn't that getting unnecessarily technical? Besides, I have just looked up the words "stanza" and "verse" in three dictionaries, and the definitions for "verse" I have put in blue would seem to show that it is fine to call the sections of our hymns "verses":

Collins English Dictionary
Stanza: A verse of a poem
Verse: 1. a division of a poem or song 2 poetry as distinct from prose 3 one of the short section into which the chapters of the books of the bible are divided 4. a poem

Encarta
Stanza: division of poem: a number of lines of verse forming a separate unit within a poem.
In many poems, each stanza has the same number of lines and the same rhythm and rhyme scheme.

Verse:
1. group of lines: a section of a poem or song consisting of a number of lines arranged together to form a single unit
2. bible numbered division of Bible chapter: a numbered subdivision into which each chapter of the Bible is divided
3. poetry poetry: poetry, as distinct from prose
4. poetry bad poetry: poetry that is trivial in content or inferior in quality
5. poetry short poem: a poem, especially a short one
6. poetry line of poem: a single line of a poem, arranged rhythmically in metrical feet

Pocket Oxford Dictionary
Stanza: group of (usu. four or more rhymed) lines as repeated metrical unit.
Verse: metrical composition; stanza of metrical lines; metrical line; each of the short numbered divisions of the bible
​

 

[12strings]

Have we "Solved the Worship Style/Music Debate once and for all" Yet? :tonofbricks:


Here's my take:

1. If your church is in spiritual decline, adding newer music will not help.
2. If your church is in spiritual decline, Getting rid of the newer music will not help.
3. The types of churches that I see abandoning the gospel the most can be divide up into 2 categories:
a. The very contemporary church whose pastor speaks like a motivational speaker or comedian and preaches a "health-and-wealth" gospel.
b. The very liturgical mainline churches who have kept their organ music and chamber groups and "sense of reverence" but have thrown out the authority of Scripture...and so have lost all relevance to a lost world, and now have declined to the point where their organ concerts are a major source of funding to keep the church open. (true story in my town)
4. Style without substance is like an nicely wrapped, empty Christmas present. Simplicity without substance is like an empty brown cardboard box. Both are empty. But if what's in the box is valuable and shown to be valuable, the wrapping will be forgotten quickly.

 

[annsni]

People back in the day could write. They expressed aspects of how we, God, and the world relate in ways that I rarely hear expressed. I grew up on that. I miss that. When was the last time you heard a contemporary song about our Father's dominion over the world (now that would have been an awesome 9/11 hymn).

I just went through the software program we use to project the words and grabbed a few songs. Each of them are contemporary:


Center

O Christ
Be the center of our lives
Be the place we fix our eyes
Be the center of our lives

You're the Center
Of the universe
Everything was made
in You, Jesus

Breath of every living thing
Everyone was made for You
You hold everything together

Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in His
Wonderful face
And the things of earth
Will grow strangely dim
In the light of His
Glory and grace


Indescribable


From the highest of heights
To the depths of the sea
Creation's revealing
Your majesty
From the colors of fall
To the fragrance of spring
Every creature unique
In the song that it sings
All exclaiming
Indescribable, uncontainable
You placed the stars in the sky
And You know them by name
You are amazing God
All powerful, untamable
Awestruck we fall to our knees
As we humbly proclaim
You are amazing God
Who has told
Every lightning bolt
Where it should go
Or seen heavenly storehouses
Laden with snow
Who imagined the sun
And gives source to its light
Yet conceals it to bring us
The coolness of night
None can fathom

Indescribable, uncontainable
You placed the stars in the sky
And You know them by name
You are amazing God
Incomparable, unchangeable
You see the depths of my heart and You love me the same
You are amazing God


Our God

Water You turned into wine
Opened the eyes
Of the blind
There's no one like You
None like You
Into the darkness
You shine
Out of the ashes we rise
There's no one like You
None like You
Our God is greater
Our God is stronger
God, You are higher
Than any other
Our God is healer
Awesome in power
Our God, our God

Into the darkness
You shine
Out of the ashes we rise
There's no one like You
None like You

And if our God is for us
Then who could
Ever stop us
And if our God is with us
Then what could
Stand against


Majesty Of Heaven


Majesty of heaven
Your glory fills the skies
Light of the world
You are Lord of all
Humbled by Your presence
Amazed by who You are
Nothing compares
You are Lord of all

To You the nations bow down
To You creation cries out
Majesty
All things You hold together
Your Name will stand forever
Majesty
You are majesty

Merciful and mighty
My heart is overwhelmed
You stand alone
You are Lord of all

Your Name above all others
High and exalted
Your kingdom shall reign forever
High and exalted

 

[12strings]

Or one of my favorite lines from a Christian artist:
(this is a song meant for solo performance, not congregational singing)


Well, I'm weary of the spoils of my ambition,
And I'm shackled by the comfort of my couch,

 

[Anastasia]

I just went through the software program we use to project the words and grabbed a few songs. Each of them are contemporary:

Indescribable


Indescribable, uncontainable
You placed the stars in the sky
And You know them by name
You are amazing God
Incomparable, unchangeable
You see the depths of my heart and You love me the same
You are amazing God

This song is played with a perkiness that I just don't feel about God, and I am supposed to "feel" this pop music enthusiasm? I would rather just go pray by myself because that is more real. I yearn for reverence that this song/style does not inspire in me. This song does not give time to contemplate the depth and meaning of something like "You see the depths of my heart and you love me the same." There is more to that lyric than the song begins to capture. Thinking about how great the universe is like this song "let's" me, does not inspire that sense of awe in me. I don't know how to sing along to this and mean it the way I can sing and mean other things, and yet it is so popular! :| Maybe if they completely re-did the way that this song was played...*

Also, God is NOT quite indescribable, and I would submit almost any Psalm as evidence of this.

I want writing that I can feel real when singing, writing that has depth, not just breadth. I cannot remember the last time I heard this song sung in a church. It is not "modern" or "contemporary" enough, and we can't just slightly update the language because that would be too hard I guess.

Rock of Ages:
1. Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee;
let the water and the blood,
from thy wounded side which flowed,
be of sin the double cure;
save from wrath and make me pure.

2. Not the labors of my hands
can fulfill thy law's commands;
could my zeal no respite know,
could my tears forever flow,
all for sin could not atone;
thou must save, and thou alone.

3. Nothing in my hand I bring,
simply to the cross I cling;
naked, come to thee for dress;
helpless, look to thee for grace;
foul, I to the fountain fly;
wash me, Savior, or I die.

4. While I draw this fleeting breath,
when mine eyes shall close in death,
when I soar to worlds unknown,
see thee on thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee.

*I am admittedly a musical snob about Christian music even though I don't listen to it a lot any more because I used to think that the more "Christian" thing was the listen to "Christian" music even though it only expressed a narrow portion of my life and it seemed musically limited but the only Christian stations my radio received. I would rather be wrong but be real than be right and be dead inside. I wonder if this is just not an area of worship that I relate to as much any more. Can that happen?

 

[Anastasia]

Seriously? Oh well. That's why we have these discussions, don't we?

Visited a friend's mainline Protestant church some time ago. They were having some special music and we agreed to attend. Music was very old school. Sermon was ... well, I thought I was listening to PBS. Not sure if Jesus was ever mentioned. Sad.

That is very sad. Here is an example of a Christian hiphop song that I would have liked as background music at a church event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EK4gTJe9ak&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lldABoQec8g&feature=related

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is very sad. Here is an example of a Christian hiphop song that I would have liked as background music at a church event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EK4gTJe9ak&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lldABoQec8g&feature=related

You really prefer this to say Bach?

 

[annsni]

This song is played with a perkiness that I just don't feel about God, and I am supposed to "feel" this pop music enthusiasm? I would rather just go pray by myself because that is more real. I yearn for reverence that this song/style does not inspire in me. This song does not give time to contemplate the depth and meaning of something like "You see the depths of my heart and you love me the same." There is more to that lyric than the song begins to capture. Thinking about how great the universe is like this song "let's" me, does not inspire that sense of awe in me. I don't know how to sing along to this and mean it the way I can sing and mean other things, and yet it is so popular! :| Maybe if they completely re-did the way that this song was played...*

See, I know when I sing this song, I think of just how incredible God is and thinking about the entire universe that He created - how vast it is - and yet He loves me.

Also, God is NOT quite indescribable, and I would submit almost any Psalm as evidence of this.

So you think that we can fully describe God? That we have the words and the ability to fully comprehend Him? I believe that He is more than we could ever even fathom and I don't think He's able to even begun to be framed in our own finite thinking.

I want writing that I can feel real when singing, writing that has depth, not just breadth. I cannot remember the last time I heard this song sung in a church. It is not "modern" or "contemporary" enough, and we can't just slightly update the language because that would be too hard I guess.

Rock of Ages:
1. Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee;
let the water and the blood,
from thy wounded side which flowed,
be of sin the double cure;
save from wrath and make me pure.

2. Not the labors of my hands
can fulfill thy law's commands;
could my zeal no respite know,
could my tears forever flow,
all for sin could not atone;
thou must save, and thou alone.

3. Nothing in my hand I bring,
simply to the cross I cling;
naked, come to thee for dress;
helpless, look to thee for grace;
foul, I to the fountain fly;
wash me, Savior, or I die.

4. While I draw this fleeting breath,
when mine eyes shall close in death,
when I soar to worlds unknown,
see thee on thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee.

I don't see that as necessarily "deeper" than say "In Christ Alone" and yet In Christ Alone is in my own language and a song I can understand and sing from my heart.

 

[Anastasia]

You really prefer this to say Bach?

They don't play Bach at any church I have been to in the last decade. The closest you can come in the Lutherans or Episcopalians (and the ELCA and Episcopalians are not what they uses to be, morally/theologically. Also, yeah, sometimes. I don't want the same style every day, and I can't dance to Bach. You think every teen is going to listen to Bach?

 

[Anastasia]

See, I know when I sing this song, I think of just how incredible God is and thinking about the entire universe that He created - how vast it is - and yet He loves me.



So you think that we can fully describe God? That we have the words and the ability to fully comprehend Him? I believe that He is more than we could ever even fathom and I don't think He's able to even begun to be framed in our own finite thinking.



I don't see that as necessarily "deeper" than say "In Christ Alone" and yet In Christ Alone is in my own language and a song I can understand and sing from my heart.

God is not utterly beyond description though, and I don't like saying just that He is indescribable. I don't connect with the song Indescribable, and I have had that particular song shoved down my throat a few too many times more than I care to tolerate. I need a break from that. I don't want to hear this song over and over and over again. If it has to be modern, Laura Story's Blessings is way more humbling to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CSVqHcdhXQ

 

[annsni]

God is not utterly beyond description though, and I don't like saying just that He is indescribable. I don't connect with the song Indescribable, and I have had that particular song shoved down my throat a few too many times more than I care to tolerate. I need a break from that. I don't want to hear this song over and over and over again. If it has to be modern, Laura Story's Blessings is way more humbling to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CSVqHcdhXQ

I do think sometimes we hook on a song and overplay it.

We have used Blessings a number of times and I did a 9-11 slideshow with that song!

 

[Aaron]

God is not utterly beyond description though

Start describing!:laugh:

 

[annsni]

Start describing!:laugh:

I agree. I doubt there are even words that would come close to who God is and what He's like. When I even begin to consider Him, I'm without words.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

They don't play Bach at any church I have been to in the last decade. The closest you can come in the Lutherans or Episcopalians (and the ELCA and Episcopalians are not what they uses to be, morally/theologically. Also, yeah, sometimes. I don't want the same style every day, and I can't dance to Bach. You think every teen is going to listen to Bach?

You can dance to that Rap Crap? sorry, but you cant compare the two.

 

[Anastasia]

Start describing!:laugh:

Psalm 99:
1 The LORD reigns, let the peoples tremble;
He is enthroned above the cherubim, let the earth shake!
2 The LORD is great in Zion,
And He is exalted above all the peoples.
3 Let them praise Your great and awesome name;
Holy is He.
4 The strength of the King loves justice;
You have established equity;
You have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob.
5 Exalt the LORD our God
And worship at His footstool;
Holy is He.

Psalm 106
1 Praise the LORD!
Oh give thanks to the LORD, for He is good;
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

http://www.seekgod.org/bible/godis.html
This has a cool list of verses that point out things like He is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth, does not show partiality, awesome and mighty, sees mankind, is not thought of by the wicked, is out refuge and strength, is light, is in those who live in love and in God, etc. It's NIV, but I don't think we can totally hold this against the contents of the page.

He is orderly (Creation, the rules that governed society in the OT, the organization encouraged in the church). He is a righteous judge who is also merciful to us (Christ).

The names of God tell us something about who He is. I have misplaced my book, but here is a short list I found on BlueLetterBible.org They tell us something about who He is as someone who relates to us as our God.
El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
El Elyon (The Most High God)
Adonai (Lord, Master)
Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)
Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)
Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)
Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)
Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)
El Olam (The Everlasting God)
Elohim (God)
Qanna (Jealous)
Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)
Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)
Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

Rev 21:5 Note: He has the power to make things new and speaks truth.

1 Tim 2:13 Note: God is faithful even when we are not.

Our Father who are in heaven...

Christ was beaten and afflicted for our sake, and we know that He is God. That says something about who he is.

That is just off the top of my head. We can use other adjectives to describe God or look at things that God has done to see how He reveals Himself to us. I would be happy to add a little more, but I must do a few other things. Yes, He is in many ways beyond language and even beyond the comprehension of our temporal and finite minds, but if we had no words to say anything of who He is, how would we ever tell others who He is?