Will ALL children go.....?

Reply to Askjo,

This is a typical post nowdays, asking not what the Bible says, but what people believe.

The root question, do children go to heaven, contains the assumption before they put their trust in Christ. And the answer from scripture, John 3:18 is no, no one goes to heaven if they did not put their trust in Christ. They were condemned already.

To get around this obvious truth, people make stories up like God gives children who die before the age of accountability faith, so they go to heaven.
But they base this assertion not on specific scripture but on what they say is the character and love of God.

The age of accountability would seem to apply to the misdeeds of a person, so say a two year old lies, would God torment the child in Hades for that sin? He surely would for a twenty year old. So there seems to be a consensus that at some age, God would punish the person because they knew their actions were wrong, i.e. treating others differently than they would want to be treated.

The Bible says God punishes folks for doing what they know is wrong, so a reasonable inference would be to say we do not know what God does to those who sin, but did not know it was wrong. But even that fails, because the Bible tells us the wages of sin is death, which means at a minimum separation from God.

So if you do not punish a person because they did not know they were doing wrong, but you do not allow them to be united with God, what are the available options?

 

Good post. When Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh he meant just that. Flesh comes from sinful flesh whether it sins or not and cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Let's apply. Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus born of the flesh had to be changed. He was without sin yet He died just as God had told Adam, dying thou shall surely die.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Shall be, future. By his life, His resurrected life. Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

Whether 1 minute old or 120 years old, "Ye must be born again."

 

I, too, believe that all things are in God's hands. But that's neither here nor there in regards to what I stated. All I am asking is for scriptural support that God will not call some people whatsoever.

Correct. God has purposed to send a Saviour to save mankind from their sins. Without Jesus' deeds concerning the cross occuring, none would be saved. That is correct.

Whatever He chooses to do, is fine by me. However, what is be stated on here concerning what He will do, is not entirely correct. His call goes to all who have knowingly transgressed against Him. Those who reject it and die lost, will suffer the consequences.

 

So, a new born baby needs to be born again? What sin(I am talking about the soul) did that baby do that it must be born again?

 

In the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus is the word sin brought up?

The reason for the new birth is being born of the flesh. When Adam sinned he brought death to all born of the flesh after him. A Flesh and blood living soul cannot inherit the kingdom of God because it is of corruptible material. The soul exists in a tabernacle that will dissolve. What was formed from the earth plus the breath from God became a living soul. The soul that sins, it will die. And it's tabernacle will rot away in time. The soul of Jesus was raised from the dead in a tabernacle no more to return to corruption and did not see corruption.

 

It seems to be the prevailing wisdom that children go to Heaven when they die until they reach the age of accountability. I say "prevailing wisdom" because there is no solid scriptural foundation for this belief. Nevertheless we believe in a just God. The problem with this belief is that in all children there is a split second before which the child would go to Heaven when he dies, and after which he would go to Hell unless he has been born again. So for a child to prolong making this decision for Christ is like playing Russian roulette. Better to err on the side of not old enough to understand than to wait around. If you're old enough to understand and haven't done anything about it, you're doomed. Unfortunately only God knows when that split second in time occurs.

 

Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus about being born again/born from above, that meaning, that the soul, and not flesh, is what needs to be reborn. The greatest CHRISTian who would ever walk this earth, their flesh is never born again.

The flesh will never be born again, that is, while on this earth. When He comes to take us home, then, and only then, will it be changed into the same body that Jesus has, and that body will be spiritual in nature.

Correct. He ushered the death sentence upon all men, and regardless of being saved or not, none will escape that death. However, those who have been reborn by the Spirit will never taste eternal death/eternal seperation.

The soul is never part of the physical(flesh) body, but is given directly by God. The soul is given by God, and God makes the physical body from the union of sperm/egg.

Agreed.

Nope. That which is born of flesh is flesh(union of sperm/egg), and that which is born of Spirit, is spirit(soul of man). The inner and outer man are two completely different things altogether.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

 

we are conceived as guilty in Adam

For this scriptural support...you need to look at the verses that tell us who God has elected...It never says all people without exception.
The second line of scriptural support are those given to the Son...the sheep. the church,each individual that the Father gives in the covenant of redemption.

 

I am convinced that Babies who die do go to heaven. Some of the reasons I have come to this conclusion are here:

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...you-believe-that-infants-who-die-go-to-heaven

and here:

http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/07/24/why-we-believe-children-who-die-go-to-heaven-2/

(both of those are from a calvinistic understanding, but not all of their reasons are based on that).


HOWEVER... I do believe it is a hard issue that is not explicitly laid out by God for the very reason that if it were extremely obvious that all infants went to heaven, you would have a high rate of infanticide among radicals who wanted to guarantee the salvation of their children.

 

John 3:3 Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (נפש nephesh)

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
1 Cor. 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

The soul that is born from it's mother is flesh and blood. If the breath of the spirit of life from God in present it is a living soul.

1 Cor. 15:50 that flesh and blood (soul {nephesh} is in the blood) cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life (נפש nephesh) thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Lev. 17:11 For the life (נפש nephesh) of the flesh [is] in the blood:

Man is a soul either living or dead. The soul of man is in the blood. Christ poured out his life soul unto death. The dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4 are the dead souls in Christ. They died having had the Spirit of God being in Christ.
They must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

1 Thess. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope There friends were concerned how those who had died were going to be in the kingdom of God, the gospel Paul preached everywhere he went.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. even so in the same way, God will bring them with Jesus into the kingdom of God by resurrection from the dead. Jesus was and is the firstborn from the dead, then he will be the firstborn of many brethren, from the dead.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. Those alive at the coming of Jesus shall not precede the dead in Christ into the kingdom of God.

The problem is we do not believe that the gospel of God, first preached by Jesus, then by those he taught including Paul is the gospel of the kingdom of God and how men can be born into it by resurrection.

Instead we believe in dying and going somewhere at death.

Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, (the wages of sin) but after this the judgment:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, (because of the sin of Adam all receive the wages of sin, death even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (to judgement some to life the gift of God or some to condemnation)

 

The question that needs to be asked is "what does 'in Adam' refer to"? It is our physical body. God then places the soul in that body that is condemned to die because of Adam's fall in the Garden. The soul is given by, and from God, and yet you state it is seperated from God at this very point? If this is correct, then sin is laid solely on God. God places an innocent soul in a corrpupt body, but the soul dies when God shows them as sinners, and they are then in the condemned state because of their rejecting Him.

Then I guess John 12:32 where it states that when Jesus is raised up He will draw all men unto Him, and Titus 2:11-12 where it states that the Grace of God hath appeared unto all men, teaching them to deny ungodliness and worldly lust, and to live righteously, soberly, and godly in this present world just gets ushered out the door?

 

Adam's body was first formed lifeless, and then God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living soul. That's the same way with us. Our bodies are first formed in the womb, and God then places the soul in that body, even before it is completely formed. Even while in the womb, the baby has a heartbeat. If that baby dies inside the womb, or is aborted, it died as a result of the curse of Adam. The soul would then go back to God Who gave it(Ecc. 12:7).

 

Then I guess John 12:32 where it states that when Jesus is raised up He will draw all men unto Him, and Titus 2:11-12 where it states that the Grace of God hath appeared unto all men, teaching them to deny ungodliness and worldly lust, and to live righteously, soberly, and godly in this present world just gets ushered out the door?[/QUOTE]


These verses mean .....all men.....not only jewish people....all kinds of men.
It never was intended to mean all men without exception...

Willis....when Jesus was on the cross...there were eskimos who were dying who never heard of Jesus...and aborigines...and chinese people who were not in any way drawn unto Him....
How are all men everywhere taught that ;
[QUOTE teaching them to deny ungodliness and worldly lust, and to live righteously, soberly, and godly in this present world ][/QUOTE]

The way you are understanding it does not really make sense...does it???

 

Then John the Baptist was lying when he said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the whole world?" If Jesus took the sins of the whole world upon Himself, and died on the cross, taking them with Him in His flesh, then He did, indeed, become the propititiation(sp?) of the whole world. If He died for all sins, then it is safe to say He died for all sinners, which the scriptures have concluded all under sin. So, if Jesus died for them, He then made the way possible for all men. However, only those who accept His invitation will be saved.

Easy, by the Spirit. Jesus, in His fleshly body, could only be one place at a time. But, He could still heal them, even if they were miles away. By His Spirit, He healed those who were far away from Him.

Au contraire. The Spirit can reach them to the uttermost.

 

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

spirit רוח ruwach

Strong's H7307 - ruwach AV — Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4, vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6


Where do you find soul here?

Our best example. Jesus, commended his spirit, that from the Father that gave him life as a man, into the hands of the Father that had given it. I believe into thy hands implies to keep for me until given to me again. This would have been the same by which he had been conceived in the egg of Mary. From Scripture4all.org Greek Interlinear Bible (NT)

IN her BEING-generatED OUT OF-spirit IS HOLY Matt.1:20

His body was laid in a borrowed tomb

And in Acts 2:31 David speaking of the resurrection of the Christ said, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

His soul was raised from Hades and his body that had been laid in a borrowed tomb did not see corruption and came forth from there no more to see corruption.

No where to my knowledge does the word of God say there was a soul put in Adam or that one is put in us. We are souls that are given names. The soul that came forth from Mary they named him Jesus

 

,

Soul and spirit are used interchangeably.,,,,

 

Willis.....where or how do you see this in the bible?? In what way has the Spirit reached eskimos, or aborigines the way you are speaking about??/

Do not go into the realm of fantasy! 900ft tall angels could appear secretly also??? What basis can we say these things...why are we told to preach if God has planned to just directly save random persons?

 

How about listing a few verses.

 

Well, just for starters:

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Show me a preacher in any of these verses I posted. There are a lot of closet synergists on here. They state that God doesn't need man's assistance(monergism), and then turn around and state that they can't be saved unless they hear a preacher. God either needs man's assistance(I mean man having to accept the offer of salvation in order to be saved) or not. The pendulum can't swing both ways.

Uh Brother, that is not what John the Baptist meant when he stated "Behold,the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the whole world." Jesus came to bear the sins of mankind upon His body, take them to the cross, and condemn sin in the flesh.

Greek word used for "propitiation": hilasmos ἱλασμός


1) an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Jesus appeased God's wrath concerning sin, in that He paid the sin debt in full when He took all sins to the cross upon Himself. Look at the rich young ruler and Jezebel for instance. The rich young ruler came to Jesus, and even asked Him what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus told him, he didn't like what was said, and walked away. I can never find where he ever came back even. It even states that Jesus loved him.

Jezebel was given a space to repent, and she repented not. Now, if anyone truly fits the bill of an "non-elect", Jezebel would be the poster child for them. But God gave her an opportunity to repent, eventhough He knew beforehand she wouldn't do it.

Oh yes He did. The sheep that He was talking about at that time where those who followed after Him while He was upon this earth in His physical body. He stated that He had other sheep that were not of this fold(those with Him at that time).

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

See, here is a prime example of Him referring to His sheep being those who were with Him while He was here on earth. None of us have ever seen Jesus with our natural eyes, so He could not be talking about His sheep that would come afterwards. Jesus laid His life down for His sheep(those with Him at that time, is a correct statement), but He also paid the sin debt in full, meaning all sins were taken to the cross upon His flesh.

I agree.

You need to carry that last sentence out a few words. He came to seek and save that which was lost. Since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and since the scriptures have concluded all under sin, then He is seeking after those who are lost. You are reading into the verse what isn't there. Romans 5:6 states that Christ died for the ungodly, nothing more and nothing less. Again, all have sinned and come short of His glory, and again, the scriptures have concluded all under sin, so then all were ungodly, and Christ died for the ungodly. Again, you are reading more into the text that what is really being said.

I agree with this.

 

Numerous verses, but John 12:37, John 13:21, Matt. 20:28, Matt. 27:50, Heb. 12:23, etc.

It should also be noted not only are spirit and soul used interchangeably, but other phrases such as heart, conscience, fountain of life, mind, will, and others.