Preterism is the only honest way to understand bible prophecy

[Winman]

So three more replies and not one verse yet that says that Christ will return a long time in the future or that he will return in a bodily form.

Preterits still have the bible on their side that Christ returned soon as he said he would and the Apostles affirmed his soon return all through the New Testament.

The parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the talents in Matthew 25 both point to a long delay before Jesus returns.

Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

There is also this;

Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink and to be drunken;

 

[kyredneck]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1706986#post1706986

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1707038#post1707038

John was banished to the Isle of Patmos by Domitian in the 90's when Domitian reigned.

This is bad information that you persist in disseminating.

"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Concise Critical Comments on the Holy Bible, by Robert Young.”

In other words a 'stupid mistake' by Sulpicius Severus and others has resulted in A DOMINO EFFECT of bad information down through the centuries

This fact alone discredits your position.

It's not a fact, it's bad information which you persist in passing along.

All conservative Bible dictionaries, encyclopedias, commentaries, etc. that I have ever read have attested to this fact. He was there and wrote the book 96-98 A.D. well after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Then you desperately need to expand your library. It's as Gill says about it, “the more commonly received opinion” is the late date, and as this shows, these opinions have been based on BAD INFORMATION.

 

[thomas15]

FYI,

The book of Revelation was put to paper in the last decade of the first century and therefore cannot be used to support the preterist position, in-fact, it is an huge agruement against the system. Proof: Because I said so.

Now run along and have a nice day.

 

[DHK]

This is bad information that you persist in disseminating.

Anything that discredits your position is "bad."

In other words a 'stupid mistake' by Sulpicius Severus and others has resulted in A DOMINO EFFECT of bad information down through the centuries

So all the editors of history books, dictionaries, encyclopedias, and commentaries are dumb enough not to do their own homework and simply clones of someone else's mistakes? Get a grip!

It's not a fact, it's bad information which you persist in passing along.

I am not one perpetuating myths here. Did Christ come back with dinosaurs also?? Who saw them? Who saw Christ come back? Where is the evidence? If you can't provide the evidence: that he came back with his mighty angels in the glory of his Father; that every eye saw him, and yet at the same time there were no witnesses to record this event then something is obviously wrong with this view.

Then you desperately need to expand your library. It's as Gill says about it, “the more commonly received opinion” is the late date, and as this shows, these opinions have been based on BAD INFORMATION.

The more commonly received opinion happens to be the right one because it is based on facts and not on myth.

My library is over 2,000 books, not counting all the books on my computer and of course the access to the internet. It is extensive.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus Fan I had hoped by now you would have matured into making biblical support of some sort for your claims, but I see still you still live in your own religion where your bible says whatever is convenient for you at the moment. Since we obviously don’t read the same bible (mine has no mention of Christ setting up a literal, physical Kingdom on earth) I’ll leave you to your own bible, religion, and beliefs. Enjoy my friend.

messiah foot will stand upon the mount when he returns...

jesus will come back to earth SAME WAY he departed, in His bodily form...

ALL the nations ON earth shall go up to jerusalem and pay homage to the KING of God, on HIS throne in the holy city of God

messiah, King, will rule all nations by rod of iron

All people shall know God, as His rule over all the earth


ANY of that fulfilled yet when jesus came back on AD 70?

 

[JesusFan]

not to change the subject, but before an individual can embrace preterism, they first must accept covenant (replacement) theology so that they can apply the covenants and promises given by Jehovah specifically to the Israelites now are the property of the Gentile church. If you don't hold to replacement scheme, then it is difficult to see how believers in the church age can be the end user of the promises in Gen ch 15 and numerous other places.

To stay current on what the modern day replacement crowd is talking about, I sometimes check out the PB forum site. Even those well learned men who hold the reformed view can struggle to give concise definitions and clear Biblical teaching for the reformed view. I just noticed the definition of self inflicted and unintentional irony posted there in a thread titled "Is there such a thing as "covenant theology for dummies"

Hello....

Think that this is actually part of the discussion for eschatology , as depending on being Dispy or covt really govern how read scriptures!


So that we are on same terminology here...

How do you define Covenant/Dispensation from biblical perspective?

 

[Iconoclast]

Well Iconoclast I had hoped for better than these poor efforts from you. If this is the best you got let me welcome you over to preterism cause you seriously ought to be considering it.

Job 19:25—are you kidding me, I mean seriously are you serious—of all the desperate graps at scripture this is beneath you.

25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job looks beyond to his own bodily resurrection...after the worms destroy his flesh....He identifies His redeemer,,,He shall stand in the latter day[singular]upon the earth.....yet in my flesh shall I see God

Not as you try to enlist Joel 2/acts 2 last days[plural]....in contrast to day singular..last days plural...not quite the same thing as Jesus had already identified the resurrection as the last day[singular]

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

Look at that verse—there is not any reference whatsoever to Christ or anybody’s return not physical, not spiritual, not in between, not nothing—it just doesn’t use the word return or any similar word in that verse. It says stand in the latter day upon the earth.

JOB is one of the earliest books written.....why would you expect him to give a detailed timeline??? It says he shall see him on the earth,after the resurrection....that works for me.


It doesn’t say return to anything. If you look at the verses around it for reference it they are not talking about Christ’s return. It is not anchored to that subject in any way whatsoever.


Sure it does once you biblically understand the LAST DAY.


This verse is just floating and you are twisting it to suit your view. That is an example of the worst sort of bible interpretation. Desperate, desperate, desperate to find a verse to twist to suit your view point.


Or the verse is what it is...says what it says....and fits into all of scripture as a unit......not an isolated verse for you to explain away.
Partial preterism is the correct view......you saw that .....but it was not enough for you.....so you press on almost looking for a gnostic insight that is not really offered in scripture.




Since later days is a reference to Acts 2 regarding Peter’s definition of last days as spoken of by Joel which informs us the bible defines last days as the end of the old covenant not the end of time.


again latter days....plural....I agree here.




As for Acts 1:11 you failed to include the entire passage beginning at verse 9 which says a cloud received Him out of their sight—did you really think you could pull that old trick over on me. So if this passage refers to his coming back it means he will come back in the same way—out of their sight—hmmm,

Logos....do not be disingenuous.....

So if this passage refers to his coming back it means he will come back in the same way

Yes...the same way.....visible and bodily


sounds like not a case for a physical return, but instead a preterist view. No where in there are the words that he will return in bodily form. No where. Thanks for making my point.

They were looking at Him physically and bodily....

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

This same Jesus [that you were just physically and bodily looking at] shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven
physically and bodily...that is how the church has always seen this.


Actually the part about his coming in refers to his coming into heaven not back to the earth.

No...Daniel 7 deals with the ascension

Since he disappeared out of their sight and they couldn’t see him the two angels were verifying he went into heaven. This is called an ellipsis—a way to shorten a passage. Repeat the term “into heaven” after come in and you see how natural it fits the sentence.

Not hovering—indwelling is the word you are looking for. The New Jerusalem is the New Covenant and we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

This is allegorizing...in rev 21 Jn does not see the "new covenant' coming down....give me a break...logos

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

the new covenant is the bride????please...

Iconoclast I’ll say it again you may be the best the futurists have and if this is your best effort—finding any verses that say bodily return you have certainly been helpful in making my point that they just don’t exist. If Christ was going to return a long time in the future he would have said so.

He does in almost every parable:thumbs:


If he was going to come back in bodily form he would have said so.

Are you sure you aren’t ready to become a full preterist and admit Christ’s return was in 70 AD?

No....it was a coming in judgement as He said in Mt 24....thats all.

Where do you think Jesus returned to in 70AD....
who saw Him??? where did he go to??

 

[Logos1]

DHK and Thomas,

Greetings brothers,

I think it is fair to say that you have tacitly admitted that the bible doesn’t support the notion of a physical return of Christ since you didn’t try to ascribe meaning to unrelated bible verses.

Hey you guys are learning and I commend you on that.

The fact that you drudge up the tired old argument of when Revelation was written to make another feeble run at discrediting Preterism proves you can’t lick Preterism when it comes to examining bible verses so you resort to trickery to attempt to discredit it. (If you can’t beat the argument then discredit the one making it so to speak—I understand you gotta do what you gotta do and your options are pretty slim.)

We’ve covered this ground so many times it is pointless to waste my time on it again. Several Preterists (thanks again Kentucky) have proven that they can more than match you on citing the book of Revelation being written before 70 AD.

But you just keep hammering away at it since you can’t find support in actual bible verses to make your case for futurism and a physical return. Not one verse for either of them—a less dedicated man might think it’s time to re-evaluate his position when the facts don’t line up with his opinion, but you guys can hug the dear life out of a preconceived notion.

After a while it just becomes child’s play beating you guys up with actual bible verses and laughable watching you squirm with trickery to make a counter point.

 

[Logos1]

messiah foot will stand upon the mount when he returns...

jesus will come back to earth SAME WAY he departed, in His bodily form...

ALL the nations ON earth shall go up to jerusalem and pay homage to the KING of God, on HIS throne in the holy city of God

messiah, King, will rule all nations by rod of iron

All people shall know God, as His rule over all the earth


ANY of that fulfilled yet when jesus came back on AD 70?

Yes Sir it was all actually fulfilled you just refuse to acknowledge any of it.

I might point out the obvious—not a single verse you allude to here actually says Christ will return in a physical body you just choose to interpret them in a way that you claim supports your position. Also not a single verse says he will return a long time into the future.

messiah foot will stand upon the mount when he returns... It doesn’t say a physical foot. This is allegorical as when God rides a fast cloud against Egypt, or throws down the mountains, or throws lightning bolts at the enemies of David.

jesus will come back to earth SAME WAY he departed, in His bodily form...uh, read verse 9 he disappeared out of their sight so if he came back the same way that would be invisible or spiritual, but actually this passage doesn’t even refer to his coming back it is about the ascension.

ALL the nations ON earth shall go up to jerusalem and pay homage to the KING of God, on HIS throne in the holy city of God….The Holy City is the New Jerusalem which is the New covenant and all nations are apart of it.

messiah, King, will rule all nations by rod of iron…yep rule over them through the New Covenant.

All people shall know God, as His rule over all the earth…Yep, the gentiles have been brought into a relationship with God through the New Covenant.

What not a single verse that actually said Christ would return in a physical form or body?????????????

So let me ask you this Jesusfan, would you actually admit that there isn’t even one single verse in the bible that actually states Christ would return in a physical body—and if not would you be so kind as to actually reference the verse as in providing a book, chapter, and verse number.

 

[Logos1]

No....it was a coming in judgement as He said in Mt 24....thats all.

Where do you think Jesus returned to in 70AD....
who saw Him??? where did he go to??

Iconoclast you just did a new post with pretty much the same old ruse.

Where do you think Jesus returned to in 70AD....
who saw Him??? Since his return was in judgement (no scripture contradicts that) Just refer to Isaiah 19:1 Where it says God rides a swift cloud against Egypt. No one saw the body of God then either did they. But we know those who saw the Assyrian army saw the manifestation of the judgment of God against Egypt so to answer your question those who saw the Roman Army saw the manifestation of Christ’s return. Pretty simple to understand that don’t you think.

where did he go to?? He went to Jerusalem in judgment, but in a larger sense he went everywhere since this ushered in the New Age through the new Covenant.

Read Luke 21:22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

All things foretold in prophecy must be fulfilled at this time according to Jesus. You are arguing with Jesus not me.

 

[Logos1]

After 25 posts we see Preterism standing tall and not a single actual bible verse registered against it. Not one. Not a single one. We also not a single bible verse saying Christ would return a long time into the future. Not a single bible verse saying Christ would return in a physical body.

Futurism, dispensationalism, tall tales of raptures, and antichrist figures ruling the world just don’t exist in the bible. They are a sham, a fool’s errand, and an embarrassment to Christianity.

Preterists can point out to Christ saying his Kingdom would come without observation. Luke 17:20

That he told his disciples some would live to see his kingdom come in Luke 9:27

That he told the high priest and those who stabbed him they would see him return.

Seven times in revelation he would come quickly.

There is just no way to deny Christ promised to return in the lives of the first generation of believers. If you believe the words of Christ and his Apostles he said it and that settles it. They never once disputed the soon return or contradicted it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast you just did a new post with pretty much the same old ruse.

Where do you think Jesus returned to in 70AD....
who saw Him??? Since his return was in judgement (no scripture contradicts that) Just refer to Isaiah 19:1 Where it says God rides a swift cloud against Egypt. No one saw the body of God then either did they. But we know those who saw the Assyrian army saw the manifestation of the judgment of God against Egypt so to answer your question those who saw the Roman Army saw the manifestation of Christ’s return. Pretty simple to understand that don’t you think.

where did he go to?? He went to Jerusalem in judgment, but in a larger sense he went everywhere since this ushered in the New Age through the new Covenant.

Read Luke 21:22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

All things foretold in prophecy must be fulfilled at this time according to Jesus. You are arguing with Jesus not me.

Logos....I like and believe all these verses...just think you are pushing them ...to far....come back to the mainstream

Read Luke 21:22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written

All of the covenant curses were coming upon Jerusalem...deut 28-32...thats fine....but I do not over work the verse....

He went to Jerusalem in judgment, but in a larger sense he went everywhere since this ushered in the New Age through the new Covenant.

I suspect you mean this as owen spoke of new heaven and new earth...being the nt administration



I

 

[DHK]

After 25 posts we see Preterism standing tall and not a single actual bible verse registered against it. Not one. Not a single one. We also not a single bible verse saying Christ would return a long time into the future. Not a single bible verse saying Christ would return in a physical body.

Futurism, dispensationalism, tall tales of raptures, and antichrist figures ruling the world just don’t exist in the bible. They are a sham, a fool’s errand, and an embarrassment to Christianity.

It is quite apparent that if you were given the Scripture (and you have), that you would simply dismiss it.
As someone said to an atheist: "If I could give you absolute proof beyond any degree of doubt that Jesus Christ rose from the dead demonstrating that He was God, would you accept my proof?
His answer would still be no.
As many Scriptures as I give, your answer would still be "no."

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11)

 

[Winman]

That Jesus will return in a real physical body is shown in Job.

Job 19:25 For I know my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Here Job speaks of the resurrection. He will not be a spirit, but actual flesh. And he will see Jesus. Jesus is not invisible here. It also says Jesus will stand upon the earth.

Now, if Job will be flesh, then Jesus will also be flesh. This is shown in 1 Cor 15, the chapter on the resurrection of our physical bodies.

1 Cor 15:49 As we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This verse says we shall bear the image of Jesus. And Job shows we shall be resurrected flesh. Therefore Jesus will also return in the flesh.

 

[thomas15]

There is just no way to deny Christ promised to return in the lives of the first generation of believers. If you believe the words of Christ and his Apostles he said it and that settles it. They never once disputed the soon return or contradicted it.

We have reached the part of this thread where preterist Iconoclast and preterist Logos1 go head to head on in pitched battle in a dispute on the issue of Jesus actually having returned in AD 70. Diversity within the unity or to the victor goes the spoils?

Kindly pass me the popcorn.

 

[thomas15]

After 25 posts we see Preterism standing tall and not a single actual bible verse registered against it. Not one. Not a single one. We also not a single bible verse saying Christ would return a long time into the future. Not a single bible verse saying Christ would return in a physical body.

Speaking for myself and my guess is that others here would agree that pointing out Biblical proof for a position one time is enough to make the point. While you never seem to get tired of repeating the same thing over and over, I take it as a sign that you don't either listen or simply don't believe the plain meaning of the words of Scripture, which is of course your personal right.

By the way and take this for what it is worth coming from someone who you don't know. I find your attitude as expressed in the title of the OP and the tone of your follow-up to be somewhat arrogant, condescending and even childish. Perhaps it is your goal to get some negative reaction to make a claim of victimhood but the truth is the preterist position has so many problems both theological and historical that it is difficult to engage in serious debate with a stright face.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

After 25 posts we see Preterism standing tall and not a single actual bible verse registered against it. Not one. Not a single one. We also not a single bible verse saying Christ would return a long time into the future. Not a single bible verse saying Christ would return in a physical body.

Logos 1, you keep saying this, as if to convince yourself that it's true. But repeating it over and over again doesn't help your case, because it simply isn't so.

As has been pointed out by several others, Acts 1:9-11 is the absolute deathknell to the Hyper-preterist system. It simply blows it out of the water.

'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

It's the same Jesus, the flesh and blood One (Luke 24:39) who went into heaven; it's the same One who will return. He left 'as they watched' (Acts 1:9); people will watch Him return. He was received out of their sight by a cloud; the clouds will part to reveal Him (Rev 1:7).

The Job 19 text is also a clincher. Either of them absolutely destroy your case. So please stop wittering on about H-P standing tall. Actually, it's lying dead on the carpet.

Steve

 

[thomas15]

Job looks beyond to his own bodily resurrection...after the worms destroy his flesh....He identifies His redeemer,,,He shall stand in the latter day[singular]upon the earth.....yet in my flesh shall I see God

A question Covenant A-mills and by extension post-mills and preterists cannot answer is if we as born again believers are living in the kingdom promised to the Israelites, the Messianic Kingdom or the Millennium with Jesus ruling on the throne of David, then why will we need changed and glorified resurrected bodies?

 

[JesusFan]

Yes Sir it was all actually fulfilled you just refuse to acknowledge any of it.

I might point out the obvious—not a single verse you allude to here actually says Christ will return in a physical body you just choose to interpret them in a way that you claim supports your position. Also not a single verse says he will return a long time into the future.

messiah foot will stand upon the mount when he returns... It doesn’t say a physical foot. This is allegorical as when God rides a fast cloud against Egypt, or throws down the mountains, or throws lightning bolts at the enemies of David.

jesus will come back to earth SAME WAY he departed, in His bodily form...uh, read verse 9 he disappeared out of their sight so if he came back the same way that would be invisible or spiritual, but actually this passage doesn’t even refer to his coming back it is about the ascension.

ALL the nations ON earth shall go up to jerusalem and pay homage to the KING of God, on HIS throne in the holy city of God….The Holy City is the New Jerusalem which is the New covenant and all nations are apart of it.

messiah, King, will rule all nations by rod of iron…yep rule over them through the New Covenant.

All people shall know God, as His rule over all the earth…Yep, the gentiles have been brought into a relationship with God through the New Covenant.

What not a single verse that actually said Christ would return in a physical form or body?????????????

So let me ask you this Jesusfan, would you actually admit that there isn’t even one single verse in the bible that actually states Christ would return in a physical body—and if not would you be so kind as to actually reference the verse as in providing a book, chapter, and verse number.

I will answer you if you answer this!

was jesus raised up as a physical resurrected body, same one he had, but glorofied?

Will there be a physical resurrection from/of the dead in Christ or not?

 

[Iconoclast]

A question Covenant A-mills and by extension post-mills and preterists cannot answer is if we as born again believers are living in the kingdom promised to the Israelites, the Messianic Kingdom or the Millennium with Jesus ruling on the throne of David, then why will we need changed and glorified resurrected bodies?

Thomas,

Covenant A-mills and by extension post-mills and preterists cannot answer is

This is not a problem at all.It suggests you have not read many of those you easily seem to set aside.

then why will we need changed and glorified resurrected bodies

16For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.