Are The Unsaved REALLY Free to NOT Sin?

[freeatlast]

I agree that no unsaved person is righteous, to be righteous means to be 100% without sin. This is why Jesus told the young rich ruler there is none good but God.

But that does not mean that sinners cannot do true good, Jesus said they can.

You are confusing doing good with being righteous. You could do good all your life, but if you sin just one time you are a sinner and not righteous. And you must pay the penalty for that one sin, which is death.

If I tell the truth, is that evil? No, it is good, it is obeying God's command. Does that make me righteous? No, because I don't always do good, I have sinned many times.

I don't understand why I am having to explain this. Sin is breaking the law, it is disobedience, it is transgression of the law. Telling the truth is not sin, God tells us to tell the truth.

No wonder folks here cannot agree, how can you reason with someone who holds illogical views?

You are correct sin IS breaking the law, but keeping the letter is not keeping the law. Just because you never comitt adultery in the physical sence does not mean you kept the law. That was the Jews problem. They did not understand the law or sinfullness. The law is kept in spirit and no lost person can keep the law in spirit. Not only is a lost person not righteous because of a good deed the deed is not righteous. The topic asks:
Are The Unsaved REALLY Free to NOT Sin?


[SIZE=+0]The answer is no. Keeping the letter of the law does not make what we do not sin. The lost are able to comply with the commands in letter, but not in spirit. Before the commands were given people were still sinners. They were sinners in spirit even if they broke no given command. Now that commands have been given the lost can obey the commands according to the letter, but that does not mean their actions are any less sinful since they do not obey in spirit. Even their righteous deeds are like filthy rags.
The reason is they obeyed for the wrong reason. With no ability to please God their good deeds are still unrighteousness.


Here is an example. Two people, one a Christian, and one lost. The Christian preaches the word of God to win people to Christ because he is lead by the Spirit. This man’s deeds are righteous as he is righteous. He and his deeds are righteous because he is being lead by the Spirit.


The lost person preaches the exact same message as the Christian and wins the same number of people to Christ, but he does it because he thinks it is a good the thing to do and it does make him a good living. Both are doing good in winning people to Christ as the word will bring some to Christ no matter who does the preaching. The lost person however even though he is doing good is sinning. His deed is sin because it is being done for the wrong reasons.This man's deeds are not Spirit lead. His deeds even though they produce good are still iniquity as he is.

Jesus said this;
[SIZE=+0]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Notice He does not rebuke them for the good deeds. He says that they were workers of iniquity (sin) in the mist of good deeds. Their deeds were not righteous because they were not in Him.

That is the way it is with every lost person. It is impossible for them to do anything for the right reason even the good they do is unrighteousness. Their every action is unrighteousness as they can never do what they do for the Lord because they do not know Him. So the answer is the lost are not free to not sin as even their righteous deeds are like a filthy rag. Not only are they unrighteous but their deeds are unrighteous. No lost person can do a righteous deed. To do a righteous deed it has to be applied to your account and no lost person will have a single righteous deed applied to them as all righteousness is in Christ, not the keeping of the law.

It is not about them being forced to sin. It is about them not having the ability to do righteousness. They can keep the commands as to the letter of the law, but they can never do them as in righteousness. All their righteousness is like a filthy rag. Even in the mist of doing outward good they are still workers of iniquity. Any person can keep the commands as no one is made to break them. Keeping them is a choice and breaking them is a choice, but keeping them does not mean they have done righteousness. External good deeds does not constitute righteousness on the part of the person
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[Winman]

We will have to agree to disagree. Jesus himself directly said evil sinners can do good. I prefer to believe what Jesus said, not Augustine, Luther, and Calvin.

Jesus knows proper doctrine, he also knows the difference between good and evil. He said sinners do good, I believe Jesus.

 

[Amy.G]

Sinners can do good, but sinners can't be good.

 

[saturneptune]

Sinners can do good, but sinners can't be good.

Amy, a very good point. Jesus said why do you call Me good? My Father in heaven is good. None of us are good, saved or unsaved. Any goodness in us is from Jesus Christ. In fact, the faith to believe it is a gift from God.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, a very good point. Jesus said why do you call Me good? My Father in heaven is good. None of us are good, saved or unsaved. Any goodness in us is from Jesus Christ. In fact, the faith to believe it is a gift from God.

Amen brother! :wavey:

 

[Winman]

Amy, a very good point. Jesus said why do you call Me good? My Father in heaven is good. None of us are good, saved or unsaved. Any goodness in us is from Jesus Christ. In fact, the faith to believe it is a gift from God.

One error after another from Calvinists. Faith is a gift in the sense that we would not be able to believe in Jesus unless God revealed him through the preaching of the word of God (Romans 10:14)

But faith is not a gift in the sense of a substance or essence given to men. Otherwise, you would have to conclude that God chooses not to give faith to the unelect and desires that they perish.

Is that what you believe? Do you believe God withholds faith from the unelect because he desires them to perish?

 

[HankD]

"Good" but by what standard?

There is the human standard of the law which keeps our flesh in check.
That is good, but it is because of the goodness of God and His love of people that He gave the law and to show us what we are - sinners.

What is the motivation of the person who is doing the good?

God knows, that is why He sent the Holy Spirit.

It is a knowledge of "good" that Adam and Eve had after they sinned.

But then there is a standard that no person can keep and it is found in both the Old and New Testaments:

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.​

Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.​

If whatever we do is not out of agape love and faith then it is sin.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.​

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

Without faith and the fruit of the Spirit (agape-love) we all fall short.​

NKJV 1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.​

The lost have neither of these qualities. Whatever they do and however good it is it is either self serving or out of constraint.​

It is good if a bank robber doesn't rob banks.

But it is because he doesn't want to get caught.
He still wants to rob banks.

The fact that we love darkness rather than light is why the wrath of God hangs over every unregenerate person.

The whole world is under the sentence of sin and death, that is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.​

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

Nothing an unregenerate person does pleases God because they are actively and continually in the state of the sin of unbelief.

When they do "good" it is because they are restrained by God (via their conscience, fear of reprisal, self-serving) from giving full vent to their evil desires though they are not aware of His presence or what He doing.

Without the reproval and conviction of the Holy Spirit we wouldn't realize our sin and see no need of a savior.​

HankD​

 

[preacher4truth]

One error after another from Calvinists. Faith is a gift in the sense that we would not be able to believe in Jesus unless God revealed him through the preaching of the word of God (Romans 10:14)

But faith is not a gift in the sense of a substance or essence given to men. Otherwise, you would have to conclude that God chooses not to give faith to the unelect and desires that they perish.

Is that what you believe? Do you believe God withholds faith from the unelect because he desires them to perish?

...and then comes one rallying unscripturally for the goodness of lost man. Which doesn't exist.

I've told you about this numerous times.

[personal attack deleted]

 

[quantumfaith]

...and then comes one rallying unscripturally for the goodness of lost man. Which doesn't exist.

I've told you about this numerous times.

[personal attack deleted]

Where in the world in this portion that you quote does Winman argue for such a thing. YOU are mistaken.

 

[preacher4truth]

Where in the world in this portion that you quote does Winman argue for such a thing. YOU are mistaken.

No, you and he are both mistaken. :thumbsup:

BTW, there was no "personal attack" in what I said, unless you consider that I am considered a calvinist.

 

[quantumfaith]

No, you and he are both mistaken. :thumbsup:

BTW, there was no "personal attack" in what I said, unless you consider that I am considered a calvinist.

No I did not respond as if it were, just a simple observation that in the quote that you "quoted" there was absolutely no mention of a position that you described. Period.

And we are mistaken how? Simply because on many issues we may disagree with you?

 

[saturneptune]

One error after another from Calvinists. Faith is a gift in the sense that we would not be able to believe in Jesus unless God revealed him through the preaching of the word of God (Romans 10:14)

But faith is not a gift in the sense of a substance or essence given to men. Otherwise, you would have to conclude that God chooses not to give faith to the unelect and desires that they perish.

Is that what you believe? Do you believe God withholds faith from the unelect because he desires them to perish?

I am going to repeat again what I said in another thread. Why is it every thread you touch turns into a Calvin-free will debate? How can you take what I said and say I believe as a Calvinist. Personally, I think the man's life was unworthy of any doctrine named after him. That is not the point. If faith is not a gift, then where does it come from, evolution?

To draw the conclusion that I "believe God withholds faith from the unelect because He desires them to perish" borders on the insane. You could just have as easily said the sky is green based on my post and it would have made as much sense.

Your unreasonable attacks on those who believe in God's sovereignty make any objective observation from you impossible. To answer your question, no I do not believe God acts that way as you put the question. I also believe you have no idea about our limited knowledge of either side, as your posts are driven by emotion and a curious idea that your opinion equates to Biblical doctrine. By the way, you do the free will side no favors.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am going to repeat again what I said in another thread. Why is it every thread you touch turns into a Calvin-free will debate? How can you take what I said and say I believe as a Calvinist. Personally, I think the man's life was unworthy of any doctrine named after him. That is not the point. If faith is not a gift, then where does it come from, evolution?

To draw the conclusion that I "believe God withholds faith from the unelect because He desires them to perish" borders on the insane. You could just have as easily said the sky is green based on my post and it would have made as much sense.

Your unreasonable attacks on those who believe in God's sovereignty make any objective observation from you impossible. To answer your question, no I do not believe God acts that way as you put the question. I also believe you have no idea about our limited knowledge of either side, as your posts are driven by emotion and a curious idea that your opinion equates to Biblical doctrine. By the way, you do the free will side no favors.

Yep. You're correct.

How he comes to his conclusions is questionable, both in what he concludes by reading posts here, and what he concludes from passages of Scripture.

He's way off track theologically. Even keeping him in context on here is impossible. It's an inherent problem with him obviously.

:thumbsup:

 

[saturneptune]

Yep. You're correct.

How he comes to his conclusions is questionable, both in what he concludes by reading posts here, and what he concludes from passages of Scripture.

He's way off track theologically. Even keeping him in context on here is impossible. It's an inherent problem with him obviously.

:thumbsup:

Thank you, brother

 

[Winman]

I am going to repeat again what I said in another thread. Why is it every thread you touch turns into a Calvin-free will debate? How can you take what I said and say I believe as a Calvinist. Personally, I think the man's life was unworthy of any doctrine named after him. That is not the point. If faith is not a gift, then where does it come from, evolution?

To draw the conclusion that I "believe God withholds faith from the unelect because He desires them to perish" borders on the insane. You could just have as easily said the sky is green based on my post and it would have made as much sense.

Your unreasonable attacks on those who believe in God's sovereignty make any objective observation from you impossible. To answer your question, no I do not believe God acts that way as you put the question. I also believe you have no idea about our limited knowledge of either side, as your posts are driven by emotion and a curious idea that your opinion equates to Biblical doctrine. By the way, you do the free will side no favors.

Your little tirade does not address the issue. If faith is a gift from God, then why don't the unregenerate have faith?

It is a very simple question, and a simple answer will suffice.

 

[convicted1]

Sinners can do good, but sinners can't be good.

AMEN!!! I would say "preach it Sister!!", but you a girl, and girls can't preach!! :tongue3: :love2::love2::love2:

 

[freeatlast]

Sinners can do good, but sinners can't be good.

Yes you are correct, but even the good deeds of lost person are unrighteousness.

 

[saturneptune]

Your little tirade does not address the issue. If faith is a gift from God, then why don't the unregenerate have faith?

It is a very simple question, and a simple answer will suffice.

Again, you ask the wrong question. The question is, "Since faith is a gift from God, then why don't some people have faith?" Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So it seems to me that those lacking faith either did not read the Word, or read it and it did not make an impression. This is not rocket science. You are the one adding the word unregenerate. That seems very odd to me since only the Lord knows who is saved and who is not, besides the individual involved. If you can look into another person's heart and see either salvation or no salvation, I certainly wish you would teach me how to do that.

 

[Winman]

Again, you ask the wrong question. The question is, "Since faith is a gift from God, then why don't some people have faith?" Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So it seems to me that those lacking faith either did not read the Word, or read it and it did not make an impression. This is not rocket science. You are the one adding the word unregenerate. That seems very odd to me since only the Lord knows who is saved and who is not, besides the individual involved. If you can look into another person's heart and see either salvation or no salvation, I certainly wish you would teach me how to do that.

I have never pretended to know who is saved and who is not, I don't know where you got that.

It is the position of most (not all) Calvinists that a person is born with a sin nature that is incapable of expressing faith in Jesus whether they hear the word of God or not. These persons believe that a person must be regenerated before they are able to have faith.

Whether you agree with this or not I do not know, but it is the doctrine of most Calvinists.

If this is so, wouldn't you agree that God withholds regeneration (and the ability to have faith) from the unelect because he desires that they perish?

 

[preacher4truth]

Again, you ask the wrong question. The question is, "Since faith is a gift from God, then why don't some people have faith?" Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So it seems to me that those lacking faith either did not read the Word, or read it and it did not make an impression. This is not rocket science. You are the one adding the word unregenerate. That seems very odd to me since only the Lord knows who is saved and who is not, besides the individual involved. If you can look into another person's heart and see either salvation or no salvation, I certainly wish you would teach me how to do that.

Those who preach in error here about faith not being a gift of God to the unregenerate at the time of salvation to believe hold to serious flaws not supported via Scriptures.

The major deficiency being they cannot prove from Scriptures that a person has inherent faith, as they argue that they do. But this aside, and what is even more grave in this matter, is that they preach what they've developed within their own reason as eternal truth. That is what is glaringly tragic here. Thus it is not truth that is being taught, it is error and is false teaching.

However, on the other hand the Scriptures clearly and concisely teach faith for salvation is the direct gift of God. Romans 10:17; Php. 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1-2.