What Did John mean By "Keeping the Commandments?"

[SIZE=+0]First off spending lots time trying to prove the bible does not mean what it says is no virtue. And No I don't believe that the bible ever contradicts. I believe it means what it says and says what it means laying aside parables, hyperboles and such.
I believe that 1 John means what it says and there is no scripture any place that contradicts it.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

I have given links to listen to a good teaching if someone does not understand what it means to keep the commandments. The speaker is right on.
What I do believe happens is that many people make confessions and do not get saved much like in the sermon on the mount when they say, Lord Lord. True believer keeps the commandments and do not go back into sinning.
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Some people have made false professions. We all agree with that.
But I don't agree with your literal interpretation of the above quoted Scripture. I don't believe you are taking the Greek tenses into consideration, neither the context of the chapter and book. You are simply ripping it out of its context. It doesn't mean what you adamantly declare it to mean. This is obvious. Hank pointed this out to. Scripture doesn't contradict Scripture:

The Corinthian Church:
Chapter one--There were so many divisions in it that Paul says: "I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius."
--That is not very complimentary of a church that he spent one and a half years building up. That is how long he was in Corinth discipling the believers he had won to the Lord. But there were divisions, many of them.

Chapter two--I preach unto you Christ and Christ crucified. He came not with enticing words. He says that because they entertained false teachers that did come with enticing words and great oratorical abilities which Paul never used. He came with the simplicity of the gospel message preached in the power of Holy Spirit in contrast to these false teachers that the Corinthian church were entertaining.
--In the last part of the chapter he teaches them about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and how the Spirit gives understanding. The natural man doesn't have that understanding. Here the natural man refers to the unsaved.

Chapter three he begins speaking of the carnal Christian. He had been with them a year and a half. This letter was written well after that, and they were still "babes in Christ." He had to feed them milk, when he should have been able to feed them meat. They had not grown spiritually. They were doing the same things that new Christians do. They were still involved with the world--worldly Christians; Carnal Christians. That is what Paul told them that they were.

Chapter four. He defends his own apostleship because of the criticism of others.

Chapter five, there is one of them, a brother in Christ, who is committing incest, such a horrible sin that it is not even committed among the heathen (Gentiles). And yet they are proud about it instead of ashamed. This man is saved; a Christian. He is living in sin. This blows your interpretation of those verses in 1John out of the water.
--Paul orders them to excommunicate such a one--to deliver him unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Later on he repented of this sin, and was accepted back into the church. He never lost his salvation.

Chapter six--Christians are taking Christians to court. Nice eh?

Chapter seven--marital problems, even fornication is referred to as a problem: "Let every man have his own wife."

Chapter eight--The problem of eating things offered to idols is dealt with.

Chapter nine--Again, he gives a defense of his apostleship.

Chapter ten--They were committing idolatry. He gives examples from the Old Testament of the consequences of such behavior.

Chapter 11--The abuse of the Lord's Supper.
They had been coming to the Lord's Table drunk and gluttonous.
For this reason some of them were weak, sick, and God had killed some of them. Horrible carnality reigned among this church of carnal Christians!

Chapters 12-14 speak of the spiritual gifts which they were also abusing. They wanted to look more spiritual and most desired those gifts such as tongues which outwardly made them look more spiritual. They were carnal and proud.

Chapter 15 was written because of heresy. There were some that even denied the resurrection of Christ. These were carnal Christians.

Taking the actions and beliefs of this one verse, how can you say that your interpretation of:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:9-10)

Your interpretation of these verses just condemned the entire Corinthian Church to hell. But Paul didn't do that. He judged them as believers, saints in Christ. So something is wrong. I say it is your interpretation of 1Johnn 3:9,10.

 

No it is you who are taking things out of context by using the letter to the Corinthians as an example. The letter was to a church, not an individual. No one in the church was doing all those things. Different people was doing different things and Paul is trying to straighten out the whole mess. In fact some were actually not failing at all, but because this was a wide spread issue even those who were not caught up in the mess, and it would be few, still get the stain on them because they are part of that church. A good reason to leave a church that is carnal.

So 1John means what it says and says what it means.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

The thing is that after Paul wrote that letter and they did not change as much as they should he then questioned if they were saved at all in the next letter.

 

OK FAL, lets make it personal.

What is your own testimony? Are you always righteous?
Have you committed a sin since you were saved?
How many sins does it take to make someone a "practicing sinner"?

I'll try to put it into an English venue.
This is difficult because koine Greek is so different than English.

Suppose you couldn't play the piano.

But you were curious.

If you went to a piano and plinked away at some notes that would be one thing.

If however you "practised" every day for hours this kind of behavior would indicate a continuing interest in piano playing.
Not only that you would be thinking about it when you didn't have a piano at your disposal.

This is explained from the beginning of the creation:

Genesis 6

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.​

This is the kind of continous sinning a Christian can't do because he is born again.

Even sinning one sin is not good for the child of God but it happens elae we wouldn't have 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1. It may even be a sin of habit but in that case it woould trouble the Christian because of the Spirit of God within him/her.

In any case, we are in fact siding with evil one when we go against the will of God.

Take Peter for instance:

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

Then just a few verses later Jesus says to Peter:

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.​

We are flesh and subject to the flesh and its desires.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.​

HankD

 

As has been said already, no mere human has the ability to succesfully keep the commandments, either before salvation or after.

This is the best 2nd option...

From 1st Corinthians 13...

 

Churches are made up of individuals.
Was the man committing incest one man or many? Paul rebuked the entire church for not taking disciplinary action, but the sin was of one man only. One man committed sin with his mother's wife, not every member of the church. The church is composed of individuals.

Gaius and Crispus are mentioned by name in the first chapter, as are other names for other reasons. Churches are made up of individuals.

The immoral man lived in immorality for a season of time. For how long before Paul rebuked him we don't know. And for how long after they disciplined him we are not sure. But we do know that it was a problem, and he was a believer that was living a very immoral life (1Cor.5:1-5). You must reconcile that problem in your theology.

 

Well if that is the definition then not even all lost people practice sin so they need to get busy. The truth is all lost people DO practice sin. The problem is that to practice sin does not mean what you have described.
To be a practice is to seek what come naturally. Christians seek after the things of the Lord naturally. For a Christian to sin they have to step outside the natural daily living and do something they do not normally do.
When a Christian sins it will not only shock those around them it will shock themselves. It is not how often or how long or what type of sin. It is about character and it is out of character for a Christian to sin. So if we claim to be a Christian and we can sin at will with no immediate conviction and turning from that sin we know we are not saved.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God

The problem is that the church has strayed so far from what the bible teaches and embraced false teachings like backsliding that the truth is skewed and people are being lied to about how to be saved and what happens at salvation. A many a people are being lead astray into thinking they can live in sin and be saved at the same time because they once asked Jesus into their hearts. It is one thing to be ignorant of a particular issue of what is sin, it is another to know it is sin and practice it.

This is why scripture say,Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So based on the bible in regards to the OP to keep the commandments means they are that which we set our hearts on to live our daily lives so as obey the One we call Lord. That is what we practice with an occasional sin. The lost do not set their hearts on the commands of God for their daily lives. They determined within themselves what is right and wrong.

 

What we know is this man sinned and it was most likely sexual with his fathers wife and that is all we know. If he was a Christian what we also know is he was not practicing this. 1 Corinthians 6:9 same letter.

He did it yes, but it is not possible to make a case he was practicing the sin as a Christian. In fact it is impossible because of the same book the 6th chapter as well as 1 John. Finally there is no clear cut evidence he was even a Christian. He may have just been a member who was lost.
Now here is what we do know.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

It is universally reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the nations, so that one should have his father's wife. (1 Corinthians 5:1)
The KJV uses the word "commonly reported." The above is Darby's translation. He translates it as "universally" reported. In other words everybody knew about from everywhere around. This was something that was not commonly done among the Gentiles. It was odious in the sight of God and in the sight of the Gentiles. It was so scandalous that all the Gentiles around knew about it. For that to happen it had to be going on for some time. There was no internet, radio, phones, etc. This no "one-night stand." The very context gives us the information that this was a relationship that was going on for a period of time. It is obvious that if it had happened only once or twice Paul would not have had to write about it. Mail came slowly. It took a long time for Paul to receive the report, and a long time for the church to receive Paul's letter, and then some time for them to act on it, all the while this man was continuing in sin.

And *ye* are puffed up, and ye have not rather mourned, in order that he that has done this deed might be taken away out of the midst of you. (1 Corinthians 5:2)
What were they puffed up about; continued to be proud about, if the man had only done this once or twice? No, it was a relationship that lasted a long time. And they were proud of this sinful relationship that this man could enjoy--a sinful carnal relationship because the church was full of carnal Christian believers. And this was an example of just one of them.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (1 Corinthians 5:6)
--They had been glorying or boasting in this man's sin or sinfulness; his continued sinful lifestyle. Paul said that such boasting or glorying is not good. The relationship was going on for some time. You must think of time constraints here. Letters did not travel via UPS. Apparently he got this report from Titus who took his time getting there. And then he had to write this epistle. Then he had to get it back to them. Everything took time.

 

Freeatlast...(bolding mine)

Then your version of heaven is going to be a very lonely place, with none of us making it in. It'll just be the Godhead and the angels.

But we all know that there are indeed going to be people in heaven.
And they will all be people who sinned their entire life.

We all keep sinning, FAL.

You, me, DHK, Billy Graham, and every other christian on earth.

Now God says that all the sinners who have been born of the Spirit and regenerated...go to heaven for eternity.

You say they dont. They are lost if they sin.

I'm sorry, but I am going to have to go with Almighty God on this one.

I dont know why you struggle with this, FAL. Its not all that complicated. Although I have a feeling that you being a calvinist has a lot to to with your confusion.

Its really simple...

*Those sinners who choose Christ and are born again go to Heaven
*Those sinners who choose to reject Christ do not go to Heaven.

The issue is what do we do regarding Christ. It all hinges on that

Know Christ...Know peace
No Christ...no peace

 

Like I pointed out there is a lot of questions about the passage and what all was happening. What we know is that no Christian practices sin according to 1 John. Also we know;

,Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This is in the same letter. So if the man was practicing sin then he was not saved.

 

All lost people practice sin FAL. Its what they do.
You and I were there once in our lives, don't you remember?

Psalm 10

2 The wickedin his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.​

You may be surprised that for the most part I agree with your last post above.​

Remember I attempted to show you my understanding of a certain scripture and I think you misunderstood my intent?​

Here it is again:
We are told to "pray witout ceasing".
I asked you if you prayed without ceasing.
If we are practicing righteousness we are praying without ceasing.​

Whether you realize it or not we are always communicating with God the Holy Spirit because He abides with us forever, He is in us, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ our Lord is always communicating with us through Him. He is always leading us, if we go our own way He won't let us alone for good or bad even in our sleep.​

Proverbs 3:24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.​

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:​

"beareth witness" is a form of present tense which means He is always doing this.​

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.​

This is how we practice righteousness, walking in the Spirit and when He reproves our sin, we acknowledge the truth. This pleases Him (not our sin of course but our admission).

The lost are always running from God looking for a place of darkness to hide from Him.

Remember?

John 3

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

HankD​

 

No. That is according to your interpretation, and your interpretation only of that passage. And your interpretation is wrong because you make it contradict the rest of the Bible as is clearly shown. The Bible does not contradict itself. There are countless such passages that give us examples where Christians have continued in sin, and God has had to deal with them--chastise them as his children.

So why not read the rest of the verse:
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:10-11)
--It is so convenient to leave out that bolded part isn't it. Such were some of you. It is also true that any one of us are capable of any sin if we are not yielded to the Holy Spirit.

This verse was written to Christians, believers.
What do you think it means:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
--James writes to believers and says that:
1. They are enemies of God.
2. They are committing spiritual adultery.

There can hardly be a better example of carnal Christians than this.

Paul said he was saved. He was a "brother." He needed to be disciplined, and restored back into the church. The purposed of excommunication or "delivering him unto Satan" was that
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:5)

Look at the last two verses of the chapter:
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1 Corinthians 5:12-13)

There were fornicators outside of the church, and there were fornicators inside of the church. Paul says that he has nothing to do with judging those that are outside of the church. God judges them. But those that are inside of the church; it is the responsibility of the church to carry out that judgment.

 

Instead of interpreting I just believe what is written.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God

 

It seems to me that you believe the Bible contradicts itself.

 

No I just don't deny one part to get another to fit false doctrine.

 

Jesusfan...

I have been noticing that for quite a while now. I have much MUCH less disagreements with you, in many areas, than with, for example, Freeatlast or Iconoclast.

From my experience I would say yes.


Btw, I think the *abreviated* version of Lordship Salvation is "LS".

Every time I see your "LDS" I automatically think "Latter Day Saints". :wavey: (Mormons)

 

Might I remind you FAL that the word "practice" is not in the original language of this passage, you (or someone who taught you) added it and in reality you are intrepreting because that word (practice) is not "written" in the word of God in the original language.

1 John 3

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.​

Now in an effort to translate from koine Greek to English or any language there are occasions when it is necessary to add words to carry the original thought into the receptor language.​

The KJV often does that usually putting it in italics but they did not add anything as you have done here.​

Why then do you add the word "practice" in parenthesis to the English translation of the word of God in this passage.​

What is the difference between:
"whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" and
"whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin"

What is the difference between:
"he cannot sin" and
"he cannot (practice) sin"

HankD​

 

Hank,
We know that John cannot be teaching sinless perfection here because of 1John 1:8-10). So to suppose that John is saying, "He cannot sin" in the sense of never sinning, must be wrong. In Greek, the Present Tense usually has the sense of continuous action, so what John is saying here is that whilst we all fall short on many occasions (James 3:2a), someone who keeps on in a sin cannot be a Christian. If someone who is in an adulterous relationship says he is Christian but won't give up his affair, he is deceiving himself. If anyone says, "I am a Christian, but I won't stop doing that" whether "that" is stealing, lying, thieving, idolatry or anything else, he is simply deceiving himself. Now anyone may fall into sin for a period, but if he is one of Christ's sheep, the good Shepherd will bring him back. If He doesn't bring him back, the only explanation is that he is not one of Christ's sheep.

Christ's sheep are a special breed. They are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear Christ's voice and they follow Him (John 10:27). If someone is continually and deliberately not listening to our Lord's commands or obeying them, how can he be one of His sheep?

Steve