Getting your theology from the Bible is worthless

[ashleysdad]

True, we all need preachers. True, we can learn from what others have written. True, we need teachers. However, how much do any of us lean on them for our spiritual discernment of the scriptures?



Too many times on here, when the road gets rough, we get what a certain theologian wrote concerning that subject, sermons from a preacher, or a baptist confession statement. If the written Word won't back up our beliefs, it is us who are failures, and not the Word.

My point is this. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will illuminate Scripture and make it understandable when we (as Gods people) read it. It also says He will guide us into all truth. I completely believe these verses, yet God still gives teachers and pastors to the church. Obviously God has chosen to work through (at least in part) men that He has gifted to teach and explain scripture. Many heresies have been propagated by people who thought they had the truth and yet were gravely wrong. Many false teachings have crept in, again by people that thought they had the truth but who were also wrong (WOF, works salvation, etc). They would claim to use the bible, we would say they are wrong. The key in this is that in our study of scripture we have to be sure we are CORRECTLY dividing the word, not just dividing it. This is why we will all (mostly) go to church this morning. To be instructed by a God called pastor to have a better understanding of what Gods word says. If we did not believe this to be important we would not get up early on a Sunday morning and go to church. The fact that most of us will do this says that we do in fact believe it to be beneficial and important to receive teaching from the teachers and pastors at our church. We all would say we hold Gods word to be the ultimate authority and completely sufficient for our instruction, nobody has denied this in this thread or the other post that prompted this thread. What has been put forth is that while we are studying scripture for ourselves and while we are relying on the illumination of the Holy Spirit we are also seeking strong Biblical teachers to further assist our understanding of Gods word and safeguard against us falling into heresies of our own.

 

[convicted1]

My point is this. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will illuminate Scripture and make it understandable when we (as Gods people) read it. It also says He will guide us into all truth. I completely believe these verses, yet God still gives teachers and pastors to the church. Obviously God has chosen to work through (at least in part) men that He has gifted to teach and explain scripture. Many heresies have been propagated by people who thought they had the truth and yet were gravely wrong. Many false teachings have crept in, again by people that thought they had the truth but who were also wrong (WOF, works salvation, etc). They would claim to use the bible, we would say they are wrong. The key in this is that in our study of scripture we have to be sure we are CORRECTLY dividing the word, not just dividing it. This is why we will all (mostly) go to church this morning. To be instructed by a God called pastor to have a better understanding of what Gods word says. If we did not believe this to be important we would not get up early on a Sunday morning and go to church. The fact that most of us will do this says that we do in fact believe it to be beneficial and important to receive teaching from the teachers and pastors at our church. We all would say we hold Gods word to be the ultimate authority and completely sufficient for our instruction, nobody has denied this in this thread or the other post that prompted this thread. What has been put forth is that while we are studying scripture for ourselves and while we are relying on the illumination of the Holy Spirit we are also seeking strong Biblical teachers to further assist our understanding of Gods word and safeguard against us falling into heresies of our own.

:applause::applause::thumbs:

I agree with all of this. The point I am trying to convey is this; always seek to gain proper knowledge of the Word, but make sure what you learn holds up when confronted with the scriptures.

 

[Luke2427]

So in summary, Luke has told us that using the Bible only is a "worthless claim" and that it will lead to heretics within one generation. Preacher4truth has told us that using the Bible only "leads to error".

Wrong.

I said to CLAIM that you get your doctrine from the Bible is a meaningless claim. I hope it is true. But as a claim, it is truly meaningless.

Here is why. EVERYONE claims to get their doctrine from the Bible. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Rob Bell, Clark Pinnock, Charasmatics, United Pentecostals, and you.

So what good is that claim?

The question is not whether or not you BELIEVE you get your doctrine from the Bible. That is a pointless claim. I know you think you get your doctrine from the Bible. I know Rob Bell thinks he gets his doctrine from the Bible.
I wish both of you did. But that you claim to do so is meaningless.

A FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR better question is this: how did you come to understand the Bible to be saying what you think it is saying?

That's all that matters.

And your answer to that reveals how dangerous you are to The Faith.

Your answer is this: I got it from the Holy Ghost. I don't NEED the stinking Church and her 2,000 years of studying and hammering out these glorious doctrines for us! I don't NEED any stinking teachers! I don't NEED any stinking BODY! All I need is a prayer closet! 'Cause GOD speaks to me and tells me what the truth is. The Church, God gifted teachers and theologians throughout the ages be HANGED!

That kind of arrogance makes you EXTREMELY- and I mean EXTREMELY- dangerous.

This is the same kind of hermeneutic that the Mormons, JW's, WoF's, UPC's and every other heretical group in the world employs.

Every Christian on this forum ought to join with me in rebuking that DEADLY attitude and philosophy.

We are COMMANDED to reprove the unfruitful works of darkness.

And if there is a darker philosophy which is bringing our culture ever more under greater darkness- I am not familiar with it.

 

[Luke2427]

So you don't believe the Bible is sufficient?

The question of sufficiency of Scripture is not an issue.

There is no question- the Scripture is PERFECTLY sufficient.

The issue is not with the sufficiency of Scripture- the issue is with the sufficiency of the ability of a lone man to properly interpret the Scripture completely by himself in a vacuum.


That lone man is HORRIFICALLY insufficient for such a task. God made him insufficient for this task on purpose.

God intends that the Body of Christ work together- on everything. No body member is any good at all by itself. It must be connected to, working with and relying heavily upon the other members of the Body to accomplish ANYTHING.

That includes interpreting Scripture.

That is the tremendous error that permeates the IFB. Their hyper independence makes them dangerous. It is the EXACT same kind of independence from the Historical Christian Church that gave us Pentecostalism, Mormonism, Charasmatics, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...

Whether you are humble enough to admit it- you NEED Athanasias to help you understand the Trinity.

The Body of Christ consists, not only of Christians living upon the earth right now, but Christians of all ages. We stand on the shoulders of the people of God who came before us. We NEED them. You NEED them.

Let me say it again- You NEED them. YOU NEED THEM. God intends that you rely heavily upon their aid.

YES- the Scripture alone is the only reliable source of truth for faith and practice.

But we NEED each other in order to properly unpack the glorious truth God has for us in that perfectly sufficient Book.

 

[preacher4truth]

So in summary, Luke has told us that using the Bible only is a "worthless claim" and that it will lead to heretics within one generation. Preacher4truth has told us that using the Bible only "leads to error".

First off, I see no where I've stated exactly what you put in quotations. This is you, once again, attempting to fantasticalize what someone said, taking great liberty to do so, and doing so out of context. Your wording, which is not my wording, attempts to make it sound like simply using the Bible in itself will automatically lead a person into error. That's not what I've implied nor what I have stated.

You're getting closer but are still far away, and there is context to what I've said, and I will stand by what I've said in its context. This is what you've also attempted on Luke2427; taking his statements out of context which is the basis of your OP/thread title here.

Does using the Bible only lead to error Matt? Ever?

It certainly does. There is no need to live in a pretend world where unregenerate man reads the Bible and "expounds" what he thinks it means and will not be in error. Also, those who claim to be saved fall into the same errors of interpretation, and misapply and misinterpret Scriptures often. They too are in error, and it may be in a worse case than those unregenerate who do the same. The Bible is not a "magic book." The saved person doing so is often times filled with pride concerning how "holy" and "spiritual" they are for being "Bible Only." What utter arrogance to state such a position concerning ones self. It is time for a person like this to grow up and own up.

So let's do this, if that is the case that using the Bible Only never leads one into error. We should burn and utterly destroy all commentaries, sermons, theological works and the like. Then we can all just be reprogrammed in our memories to remember none of what we've learned. Then like magic, we all pick up a Bible and come to the same exact conclusions, interpretations, author intent, context, as every one else. We all are lead only into to truthful interpretations and never are we in error.

The above is as absurd as one who believes using the Bible only never leads to error.

Bible Only does lead to error, it is seen on the BB as a matter of fact.

Many erroneous views of passages via proof-texting, ignorance, Spiritual pride (which is EXACTLY what "I'm a Bible Only!" person is experiencing). They're saying they need no man to teach them, when in fact God tells us He gave us teachers to help us.

To believe, state, and teach that using the Bible Only won't lead you into error is to have ones head buried in the sand.

 

[quantumfaith]

The question of sufficiency of Scripture is not an issue.

There is no question- the Scripture is PERFECTLY sufficient.

The issue is not with the sufficiency of Scripture- the issue is with the sufficiency of the ability of a lone man to properly interpret the Scripture completely by himself in a vacuum.


That lone man is HORRIFICALLY insufficient for such a task. God made him insufficient for this task on purpose.

God intends that the Body of Christ work together- on everything. No body member is any good at all by itself. It must be connected to, working with and relying heavily upon the other members of the Body to accomplish ANYTHING.

That includes interpreting Scripture.

That is the tremendous error that permeates the IFB. Their hyper independence makes them dangerous. It is the EXACT same kind of independence from the Historical Christian Church that gave us Pentecostalism, Mormonism, Charasmatics, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...

Whether you are humble enough to admit it- you NEED Athanasias to help you understand the Trinity.

The Body of Christ consists, not only of Christians living upon the earth right now, but Christians of all ages. We stand on the shoulders of the people of God who came before us. We NEED them. You NEED them.

Let me say it again- You NEED them. YOU NEED THEM. God intends that you rely heavily upon their aid.

YES- the Scripture alone is the only reliable source of truth for faith and practice.

But we NEED each other in order to properly unpack the glorious truth God has for us in that perfectly sufficient Book.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[matt wade]

Philip should have evidently said ......ok...you have the scripture.....just figure it out for yourself:thumbs::thumbs:

No, I never said that we can't utilize other's teachings as a help in our study. I don't go to the extreme, unlike Luke 2427 who says that if a person uses only the Bible they will always produce heresy. That's the problem I have. I have a problem with that extreme and arrogant opinion.

 

[matt wade]

But we NEED each other in order to properly unpack the glorious truth God has for us in that perfectly sufficient Book.

You are a contradiction. If the Bible is sufficient, then we don't NEED other people. I am not against utilizing other people's teaching, but we don't NEED it. The Bible is sufficient alone.

 

[quantumfaith]

You are a contradiction. If the Bible is sufficient, then we don't NEED other people. I am not against utilizing other people's teaching, but we don't NEED it. The Bible is sufficient alone.

I think I understand your sentiment Matt, but I think we should also consider the principle in scripture,

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17

The conflict among believers comes in with regard to who we allow ourselves to be sharpened by and be the dictum that this "group" or "that group" should be the ones doing the sharpening. The whole "I am of Paul and I am of Appollos" "thingy".

 

[preacher4truth]

You are a contradiction. If the Bible is sufficient, then we don't NEED other people. I am not against utilizing other people's teaching, but we don't NEED it. The Bible is sufficient alone.

Then God has unecessarily given us Pastors and teachers according to your teaching here. He sent them to teach us, to preach to us, to receive double-honor. He sent them to perfect the Saints and much more. He even gifted them for this purpose. Unfortunately, He gave us something that we don't need at all according to you. What a shame. This must be the first mistake God made, and you, Matt Wade, of all people found it.

It is exactly this attitude which you carry within the church that is bringing in pride, arrogance and even some animosity towards pastors among other schisms within local bodies.

Please stand up within your congregation and teach them this, tell them you don't need any preachers, if you're not a pastor, tell your pastor you don't need him, that he is unecessary, tell the teachers too, tell them you don't need anyone in the church at all and that they are just not needed, and make certain to get over to the childrens classes and tell them they don't need their teachers, they are unecessary, and throw the tots a KJV and all is settled.

 

[DHK]

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


I suppose matt wade believes Philip was in great sin, being a man and trying to obey God ,and teach the eunuch!

Philip should have evidently said ......ok...you have the scripture.....just figure it out for yourself:thumbs::thumbs:

No, But Philip didn't use Calvin or any other commentaries. He just used the Scriptures, the Bible alone.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, But Philip didn't use Calvin or any other commentaries. He just used the Scriptures, the Bible alone.

That sounds cute and super-spiritual this "Bible alone" attitude. Unfortunately for you it's not exactly wise, nor is it a super-spiritual stance whatsoever for one to hold to. He (Philip) was illuminated by the Spirit to expound the Scriptures, you know, the same Holy Spirit who has also gifted men today to do the same things. Men that have been placed within the church to do so. Many have written commentaries to teach us. Men whom God has set apart for this task, as He also did with Phillip.

So no, Philip didn't use the Bible alone as you've stated. It's far more reaching than this.

 

[DHK]

That sounds cute and super-spiritual this "Bible alone" attitude. Unfortunately for you it's not exactly wise, nor is it a super-spiritual stance whatsoever for one to hold to. He (Philip) was illuminated by the Spirit to expound the Scriptures, you know, the same Holy Spirit who has also gifted men today to do the same things. Men that have been placed within the church to do so. Many have written commentaries to teach us. Men whom God has set apart for this task, as He also did with Phillip.

So no, Philip didn't use the Bible alone as you've stated. It's far more reaching than this.

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. (Acts 8:35)
--Do you perhaps have the Quranic version of this story?
My Bible says that Philip used the Book of Isaiah, and from that Scripture preached unto him Jesus. Please give this new knowledge of what other books he may have used, if "it is far more reaching than that." Rather it is just as simple as that.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11)

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1 John 2:20)
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. (1 John 2:21)

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)

And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: (Mark 12:10)

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (Luke 16:29)
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:31)

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:20)

We are admonished to study the Word and to show ourselves approved unto God. We are commanded to search the Scriptures and the Bereans were commended by Paul for doing so. We are told by John that we don't have the need that any other man teach us because we have the Holy Spirit.

And then look at the many rebukes that are given to the scribes and Pharisees who did not study the Scriptures. They were never rebuked for not studying "their traditions and commentaries, etc.", but rather rebuked for not knowing the Scriptures. That is our obligation.

Isn't it pitiful that a Muslim can memorize the entire NT without coming to Christ, but those who do know Christ take little interest in that kind of intense Bible Study.

 

[matt wade]

Then God has unecessarily given us Pastors and teachers according to your teaching here. He sent them to teach us, to preach to us, to receive double-honor. He sent them to perfect the Saints and much more. He even gifted them for this purpose. Unfortunately, He gave us something that we don't need at all according to you. What a shame. This must be the first mistake God made, and you, Matt Wade, of all people found it.

It is exactly this attitude which you carry within the church that is bringing in pride, arrogance and even some animosity towards pastors among other schisms within local bodies.

Please stand up within your congregation and teach them this, tell them you don't need any preachers, if you're not a pastor, tell your pastor you don't need him, that he is unecessary, tell the teachers too, tell them you don't need anyone in the church at all and that they are just not needed, and make certain to get over to the childrens classes and tell them they don't need their teachers, they are unecessary, and throw the tots a KJV and all is settled.

You judge my words wrongly. I haven't said that Pastors and teachers are not a good thing. They are good thing as long as they base their teachings on the Bible alone. What we don't need is traditions and acronyms.

 

[12strings]

They are good thing as long as they base their teachings on the Bible alone. What we don't need is traditions and acronyms.

While we do not base our beliefs on traditions the way we do on the Bible, Traditions help us understand things, and can direct our bible study in profitable directions.

As to acronyms, I say NAY!

No
Acronyms
Y'all!

Also....

"Avoid Alliteration Always!!!"

 

[quantumfaith]

You judge my words wrongly. I haven't said that Pastors and teachers are not a good thing. They are good thing as long as they base their teachings on the Bible alone. What we don't need is traditions and acronyms.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
I wish I could give this even more thumbsup

 

[quantumfaith]

While we do not base our beliefs on traditions the way we do on the Bible, Traditions help us understand things, and can direct our bible study in profitable directions.

As to acronyms, I say NAY!

No
Acronyms
Y'all!

Also....

"Avoid Alliteration Always!!!"

Huh, The preponderance of pontificating platitudes is positively preposterous around here.

 

[preacher4truth]

You judge my words wrongly. I haven't said that Pastors and teachers are not a good thing. They are good thing as long as they base their teachings on the Bible alone. What we don't need is traditions and acronyms.

You're right, you never said they aren't a good thing, you've implied it. You've stated they aren't needed, only the Bible. That's an incorrect, hubristic, presumptuous pride filled statement and a stance which is against Biblical truth on the matter.

God says differently; They are needed and He appointed them Himself.

 

[quantumfaith]

You're right, you never said they aren't a good thing, you've implied it. You've stated they aren't needed, only the Bible. That's an incorrect, hubristic, presumptuous pride filled statement and a stance which is against Biblical truth on the matter.

God says differently; They are needed and He appointed them Himself.

Drivel, complete drivel. He explained himself and you insist on being overtly critical and making sure everyone knows YOU are right.

 

[jbh28]

What's interesting is that pretty much everyone on this board is in agreement. EVERYONE says the Bible is the final authority. EVERYONE uses other people to help them understand the Scriptures. I believe everyone here uses commentaries/study notes for help.

It seems that those that are saying "Bible alone" are also using other people and books in helping them understand the Bible.