Was sin foreordained and pre-determined by God

[Rippon]

Spurgeon was right THIS TIME. His next sermon, who knows? He often appears torn in his writings and freely admitted he was often inconsistent with mainstream Reformed theology.

No,you are wrong WM. He was against the hyper-Calvinism of his day --not mainstream Calvinism.

 

[Rippon]

The comparison is that both cherry-pick verses to prove doctrine that is not actually in the bible. Nothing in my comments have anything to do with being saved or unsaved. I have never said that Calvinists are not saved, in fact I have stated that they indeed are and that this point of disagreement over biblical interpretation has nothing to do with salvation.

Save you inane accusations to facts presented, not speculation found in you [sic]head.

Robert you are in the habit of saying some absurdly sinful things. When you maintain that Calvinist's twist the Word of God that even the JW's could learn from them --you are in fact insinuating that we are unsaved. Don't try your innocent act. It won't fly.

AA is one of the more level-headed and spiritually mature individuals on the BB. For you to treat him the way you do is disgraceful.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert you are in the habit of saying some absurdly sinful things. When you maintain that Calvinist's twist the Word of God that even the JW's could learn from them --you are in fact insinuating that we are unsaved. Don't try your innocent act. It won't fly.

This is a lie!

AA is one of the more level-headed and spiritually mature individuals on the BB. For you to treat him the way you do is disgraceful.

You know what they say about opinions, don't you?

 

[Winman]

No,you are wrong WM. He was against the hyper-Calvinism of his day --not mainstream Calvinism.

Then there must be a lot of hyper-Calvinists here at BB, because there have been multiple debates here where DHK and I especially have said that saving faith is not unlike common faith which all men have the ability to exercise, except saving faith is placing faith in Christ. Nearly every Calvinist here disagreed and has said no man has this saving faith unless God gives it to him. Spurgeon agrees with us here, and disagrees with you.

Having the ability to believe IS a gift from God as ALL our abilities are, but a man does not have to be regenerated to believe, it is a common ability as Spurgeon points out.

 

[Rippon]

Nearly every Calvinist here has said no man has this saving faith unless God gives it to him. Spurgeon agrees with us here, and disagrees with you.

You and Spurgeon are not on the same page on this and many other theological issues. C.H.S. believed that saving faith is a gift of God as all Calvinists believe --but especially as the Scripture teaches.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with what you also see as the purpose of the comparison Snow has given. It's simply prattle and this is an oft engaged tactic.

And you are correct, it is God that makes the unwilling willing. This is Scriptural.

Somehow man wants to think he had some great part in this process, grasping for credit, not understanding the Scriptures. Thank God for His reaching into our dark hearts, making us willing, and saving us.

Its very simple my brothers, in salvation, God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. This is true at every step of the way. Long before we could choose God, the Father chose us in Christ. When we were unable to remove our guilt, the Son died for our sins. And when we would not come to God in faith, the Spirit drew us by His grace. Thus we as Doctrines of Grace believers accept God's sovereignty in salvation.

I really do wonder about our non Calvinist brethren belief that salvation ultimately depending on the sinners own choice....then how do they pray? Do they say "Dear Lord, I realize that there may not be much that you can do about this, but if there is, please help my friend somehow to be a Christian?" :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My theology is from the bible. I am not sure where you got yours.
EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No faith no salvation no exceptions.

Again you ignore all the posts that Calvinists put up explaining it. Of course you have it down pat & we are not truly saved Christians by your proclamations, Therefore you question the salvation of every Calvinist on this board.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

According to post 57 he thinks he got saved without faith.

Again I was saved by Grace through faith and this not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. It is your contention, if I understand you correctly, that faith comes before Grace. Am I correct?

 

[freeatlast]

This is not a helpful line of thinking. Remember, it was the Reformed theologians who popularized and invented the phrase "Soli Fide." No theologian has denied the necessity of faith. If you can find one Calvinist Theologian who does, please let me know. the post #57 is a distinction in the Ordo Salutis, not an attack on faith. He was clearly arguing the proper Ordo Salutis. While this is outside the scope of this conversation, it is an item of discussion.

Part of the reason I dislike discussing this is because of the stereotypes that are absolutely wrong. As noted, I believe God is completely sovereign and man is free to choose. Man is totally responsible for his decisions, but God is totally sovereign in all things. Faith and Repentance are required, but we do not deny God's Sovereignty.

My fear is that libertine free-will denies God's Sovereignty.

Like I said;
My theology is from the bible.
EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No faith no salvation no exceptions.

 

[freeatlast]

Did you miss the word "if...?"

Again, the issue is not faith itself. No Calvinist I know would say it is possible to be saved without faith.

The question is where does the faith come from--is it inherent or are we given it?

Another question is does faith come as a result of God's election or does it allow God's election.

But, again, no one I'm aware of would say that faith is absent.

The Archangel

Again post 57 denies this;
EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No faith no salvation no exceptions.

 

[freeatlast]

Again you ignore all the posts that Calvinists put up explaining it. Of course you have it down pat & we are not truly saved Christians by your proclamations, Therefore you question the salvation of every Calvinist on this board.

What you do not understand is I have no use for Calvinism or Calvin. I simply hold to what the bible teaches and that is that God choses and man has free will. I accept both equally even though I do not know how they work together. You want it to be one sided which the bible teaches against.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are correct, but don't expect to get these Calvinists to agree. They are masters at twisting the Word of God to make it appear to say things it does not say. The Jehovah's Witnesses could learn a thing or two from them.

God offers salvation, freely purchased on the cross of Christ, and allows us to either accept or reject His grace. For some reason these Calvinists here have a problem with allowing God to give man the ability to choose.

Think your cute with that little statement Robert? And you have the gall to attack people in this fashion ....

 

[freeatlast]

Again I was saved by Grace through faith and this not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. It is your contention, if I understand you correctly, that faith comes before Grace. Am I correct?

No, you said in post 57 that you did not have faith when you got saved, but it is the bibles contention that salvation come because of faith.
EPH. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What you do not understand is I have no use for Calvinism or Calvin. I simply hold to what the bible teaches and that is that God choses and man has free will. I accept both equally even though I do not know how they work together. You want it to be one sided which the bible teaches against.

Oh I do understand.... your a free will enthusiast & a hater of Reformed theology (which is biblical). And now everyone in here knows where you stand.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, you said in post 57 that you did not have faith when you got saved, but it is the bibles contention that salvation come because of faith.
EPH. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Duh.....you know....ahh forget it

 

[freeatlast]

Oh I do understand.... your a free will enthusiast & a hater of Reformed theology (which is biblical). And now everyone in here knows where you stand.

As to reformed theology I could care less about it. I have not read any books on it or against it. So Let me repeat. I believe that God chooses, predestines, ordains or what ever other word you like, which the bible teaches, but I also believe that man has free will to choose, which the bible also teaches, with absolutely no outside influence put on him that would make him choose one way or the other.

By the way no one gets saved without faith like you tried to say, NNE!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As to reformed theology I could care less about it. I have not read any books on it or against it. So Let me repeat. I believe that God chooses, predestines, ordains or what ever other word you like, which the bible teaches, but I also believe that man has free will to choose, which the bible also teaches, with absolutely no outside influence put on him that would make him choose one way or the other.

By the way no one gets saved without faith like you tried to say, NNE!

So are you questioning my salvation?

 

[freeatlast]

So are you questioning my salvation?

I am simply stating the truth as to what the bible says. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No one gets saved without faith. Based on your post 57 you did not get saved when you think you did. I am glad that you finally came to faith and received the gift of eternal life.

 

[Ruiz]

Like I said;
My theology is from the bible.
EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No faith no salvation no exceptions.

I agree, but I see what he says was a crude rendering of the ordo salutis, which no one denies soli fide. If he is denying faith, which I do not think he was, he is denying every major reformed confession.

 

[freeatlast]

I agree, but I see what he says was a crude rendering of the ordo salutis, which no one denies soli fide. If he is denying faith, which I do not think he was, he is denying every major reformed confession.

Then he needs to clear that up because it is impossible to get that from the post.