Calvinism: more evangelistic?

[Luke2427]

An oft repeated and horribly erroneous caricature of the DoG is that they quell evangelism.

There are numerous ways to show that this is not so.

Among them are by pointing out the numerous Calvinists who are considered by reasonable people to be many, if not most, of the greatest missionaries of all time.

Another way is to show that revivals, awakenings, reformations in which multiplied thousands are ushered into the Kingdom of God and whole societies are transformed by the Gospel are more often than not- Calvinistic movements.

But I just discovered another way.

I became a Southern Baptist, not only because I came to beleive that the Baptist Faith and Message better represented what I believed than the free Will Baptist doctrine on which I was raised- but PRIMARILY because the more Calvinistic I became, the greater passion I developed for evangelism.

So, having researched the SBC for years and understanding that they are the largest Protestant denomination on earth and currently have on the mission field 5,000 missionaries- the choice seemed a no brainer for me.

But SBC is obviously, at this point in her history, NOT thoroughly Calvinistic. There is hope. The DoG is taking the SBC by storm- and thank God.

But take the PCA (Presbyterian Church of America). It is no where near as large as the SBC having 300,000 members compared to SBC's 16 MILLION members.

And it is not as old, being only about 40 years old compared to SBC's nearly 150 years of history.

YET, the PCA already has 1,400 missionaries on the field!!!

Do the math:
300,000 members support 1,400 missionaries
VS
16 MILLION members support 5,000 missionaries.

If the SBC were as evangelistic as the PCA, the SBC would have 74,000 missionaries on the field!!!!

That makes the PCA about 15 TIMES more evangelistic than SBC!!!

Let's all pray the DoG takes over SBC. My what we could do as a movement our size if we were 15 times more evangelistic!

Another proof that Calvinism, particularly classical Calvinism, is more evangelistic than Arminianism (or non-cal whatever that means); at the very least it is sufficient proof to abolish this, what I consider to be, ignorant notion that Calvinism is LESS evangelistic.

 

[Ruiz]

An oft repeated and horribly erroneous caricature of the DoG is that they quell evangelism.

There are numerous ways to show that this is not so.

Among them are by pointing out the numerous Calvinists who are considered by reasonable people to be many, if not most, of the greatest missionaries of all time.

Another way is to show that revivals, awakenings, reformations in which multiplied thousands are ushered into the Kingdom of God and whole societies are transformed by the Gospel are more often than not- Calvinistic movements.

But I just discovered another way.

I became a Southern Baptist, not only because I came to beleive that the Baptist Faith and Message better represented what I believed than the free Will Baptist doctrine on which I was raised- but PRIMARILY because the more Calvinistic I became, the greater passion I developed for evangelism.

So, having researched the SBC for years and understanding that they are the largest Protestant denomination on earth and currently have on the mission field 5,000 missionaries- the choice seemed a no brainer for me.

But SBC is obviously, at this point in her history, NOT thoroughly Calvinistic. There is hope. The DoG is taking the SBC by storm- and thank God.

But take the PCA (Presbyterian Church of America). It is no where near as large as the SBC having 300,000 members compared to SBC's 16 MILLION members.

And it is not as old, being only about 40 years old compared to SBC's nearly 150 years of history.

YET, the PCA already has 1,400 missionaries on the field!!!

Do the math:
300,000 members support 1,400 missionaries
VS
16 MILLION members support 5,000 missionaries.

The verdict? PCA is far more evangelistically aggressive than SBC.

Another proof that Calvinism, particularly classical Calvinism, is more evangelistic than Arminianism (or non-cal whatever that means).

As a Calvinist, I am not sure you are comparing apples and oranges with the statistics between the PCA and the SBC. The SBC, in general, has a poor view of membership and thus I believe their total should be somewhere between 4-6 million.

Yet, even with that change, the missionary per person is still higher in the PCA.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The term Evangelistic Calvinist is an oxymoron. As the Calvinist said in the 19th Century about the missionary movement ... it isn't necessary, God will save those he elected. We do not need to tell them. ........... That was their belief and if modern Calvinist really believe what they are saying they would hold the same idea.

 

[Luke2427]

The term Evangelistic Calvinist is an oxymoron. As the Calvinist said in the 19th Century about the missionary movement ... it isn't necessary, God will save those he elected. We do not need to tell them. ........... That was their belief and if modern Calvinist really believe what they are saying they would hold the same idea.

Reread the OP.

What I shared about many, if not most, of the greatest missionaries of all time being Calvinists, is true.

What I shared about MOST of the great revivals being thoroughly Calvinistic in nature is true.

What I shared about the PCA is true.

You have made no case- just an unwarranted claim.

Do you think your statement is worth something without support JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY IT????????????

 

[Luke2427]

As a Calvinist, I am not sure you are comparing apples and oranges with the statistics between the PCA and the SBC. The SBC, in general, has a poor view of membership and thus I believe their total should be somewhere between 4-6 million.

Yet, even with that change, the missionary per person is still higher in the PCA.

I agree. About 10 million Southern Baptists do not show up for church every Sunday.

The PCA has a better way of tallying their numbers. They speak of communicant and non-communicant members so their numbers are more accurate.

 

[Ruiz]

The term Evangelistic Calvinist is an oxymoron. As the Calvinist said in the 19th Century about the missionary movement ... it isn't necessary, God will save those he elected. We do not need to tell them. ........... That was their belief and if modern Calvinist really believe what they are saying they would hold the same idea.

This is a statement that is rooted in a very strange mindset. You take part of our theology to try to use against us, but fail to utilize our entire theology to see that Calvinism does have a strong impetus towards evangelism. The evidence, I do believe shows, that we have been extremely zealous evangelists. Why? Not despite our theology but because of our theology.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Do the math?

The SBC has 16 million members and 5000 missionaries, that's 1 missionary for every 3200 people. And if remember the last analysis i read, 40% of SBC missions money is eaten up by the missions board.

In my church, we have around 60 members, and we have sent 4 missionaries overseas directly from our church that we wholely support. We have a gospel mission that has 2 full time pastors and an administraive staff. But for this, we'll just count the pastors. And we have 6 missionaries from other local churches that we contribute to thier support.

That's 60 members, and 12 missionaries which is 1 missionary for every 5 members. And 100% of every dollar we give gets to the missionaries, not to a board.

We also have tuesday night visitation committee that goes out to visit people that have visted our church, are ill, or have not not been at church for a while.

We also have a Saturday morning door to door visitation, where we go through the neighborhoods and hand out tracts, witness, and invite folks to church.

You don't have to have 16,000,000 members to make a difference. I think we do a pretty fair job of evangelising, even though some may say we are in "darkness"

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

An oft repeated and horribly erroneous caricature of the DoG is that they quell evangelism.

There are numerous ways to show that this is not so.

Among them are by pointing out the numerous Calvinists who are considered by reasonable people to be many, if not most, of the greatest missionaries of all time.

Another way is to show that revivals, awakenings, reformations in which multiplied thousands are ushered into the Kingdom of God and whole societies are transformed by the Gospel are more often than not- Calvinistic movements.

But I just discovered another way.

I became a Southern Baptist, not only because I came to beleive that the Baptist Faith and Message better represented what I believed than the free Will Baptist doctrine on which I was raised- but PRIMARILY because the more Calvinistic I became, the greater passion I developed for evangelism.

So, having researched the SBC for years and understanding that they are the largest Protestant denomination on earth and currently have on the mission field 5,000 missionaries- the choice seemed a no brainer for me.

But SBC is obviously, at this point in her history, NOT thoroughly Calvinistic. There is hope. The DoG is taking the SBC by storm- and thank God.

But take the PCA (Presbyterian Church of America). It is no where near as large as the SBC having 300,000 members compared to SBC's 16 MILLION members.

And it is not as old, being only about 40 years old compared to SBC's nearly 150 years of history.

YET, the PCA already has 1,400 missionaries on the field!!!

Do the math:
300,000 members support 1,400 missionaries
VS
16 MILLION members support 5,000 missionaries.

If the SBC were as evangelistic as the PCA, the SBC would have 74,000 missionaries on the field!!!!

That makes the PCA about 15 TIMES more evangelistic than SBC!!!

Let's all pray the DoG takes over SBC. My what we could do as a movement our size if we were 15 times more evangelistic!

Another proof that Calvinism, particularly classical Calvinism, is more evangelistic than Arminianism (or non-cal whatever that means); at the very least it is sufficient proof to abolish this, what I consider to be, ignorant notion that Calvinism is LESS evangelistic.

The only Calvinist Baptist church that I have ever set foot in did not believe in evangelism of any kind. They said that it was God's work to save people and that man did not have the capability to convert anyone. They said that their purpose in having the Church was to have a place for people to come to when God calls them. They said God brings His people to the church, but that the church should'nt go to the people.

John

 

[Crabtownboy]

This is a statement that is rooted in a very strange mindset. You take part of our theology to try to use against us, but fail to utilize our entire theology to see that Calvinism does have a strong impetus towards evangelism. The evidence, I do believe shows, that we have been extremely zealous evangelists. Why? Not despite our theology but because of our theology.

Actually I do not take part of your theology and use it against you. I use history where J. R. Ryland, the father of John Ryland, is said to have retorted:

At a ministers' meeting in 1786, Carey raised the question of whether it was the duty of all Christians to spread the Gospel throughout the world.

Ryland, a leading Calvinist, replied.

"Young man, sit down; when God pleases to convert the heathen, he will do it without your aid and mine."
J. R. Ryland, the father of John Ryland, is said to have retorted:

http://www.ttstm.com/2011/06/june-20-william-carey-called.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=pU...ill do it without your aid and mine."&f=false

There are many web sites that report this exchange.

 

[Ruiz]

The only Calvinist Baptist church that I have ever set foot in did not believe in evangelism of any kind. They said that it was God's work to save people and that man did not have the capability to convert anyone. They said that their purpose in having the Church was to have a place for people to come to when God calls them. They said God brings His people to the church, but that the church should'nt go to the people.

John

Both of us can have anecdotal evidence for such things and show individual churches on both sides who are very evangelistic and those who are every unevangelistic. Personally, the two most mission minded churches I have ever belonged to were Reformed. One of them is the my current church.

Yet, overall, there are some on both sides that are not evangelistic and some on both sides who are. However, traditionally Calvinists have been very evangelistic.

 

[Ruiz]

Actually I do not take part of your theology and use it against you. I use history where J. R. Ryland, the father of John Ryland, is said to have retorted:



Ryland, a leading Calvinist, replied.



http://www.ttstm.com/2011/06/june-20-william-carey-called.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=pU...ill do it without your aid and mine."&f=false

There are many web sites that report this exchange.

He was a hyper-calvinist. If you look at the issue, they were sending a Calvinist overseas. The missionaries were Andrew Murray and Adonirom Judson, both Calvinists, who founded the modern missions movement.

Yes, there are some people who are hyper-calvinists. There are also bad examples of non-hyper-calvinists. Yet, overall, we have been consistently evangelistic. Where would we be without Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield? How has Murray and Judson changed our world? What about Spurgeon? Can anyone doubt Piper's commitment to missions or D. James Kennedy's commitment to evangelism?

We can get anecdotal evidence to support our cause. Yet, the record is so full of great evangelists from Calvinists that it really is hard to argue against the entirety of the record.

 

[Jerome]

Luke please source your claim that PCA "has 1,400 missionaries on the field!!!".

 

[Ruiz]

Luke please source your claim that PCA "has 1,400 missionaries on the field!!!".

Good point Jerome. I found that Mission to the World has 600 missionaries. I know that Mission to the World is not the only branch of international mission work they are involved in, as a friend of mine is a missionary through the PCA but not through Mission to the World. However, this is still a higher percentage than the SBC if we take their number of communicant members listed on the same page.

 

[David Lamb]

The term Evangelistic Calvinist is an oxymoron. As the Calvinist said in the 19th Century about the missionary movement ... it isn't necessary, God will save those he elected. We do not need to tell them. ........... That was their belief and if modern Calvinist really believe what they are saying they would hold the same idea.

But the very person those sentiments were addressed to, William Carey, was a Calvinist!

 

[Ruiz]

My post used 2000 statistics, so they are a bit dated.

 

[Crabtownboy]

But the very person those sentiments were addressed to, William Carey, was a Calvinist!

That is interesting, isn't it. Obviously Cary believed in free-will as well as election. I have said for several years that the truth lies in neither extreme. But I must say the Calvinist on this BB have convinced me that their position, and the position they try to paint for Calvin are in error. Also there are points in Calvinist beliefs that can be seen as in a direct line, through Augustine, to the Gnostic belief system.

All this debate probably shows us that God does have a sense of humor as he watches his children bicker over various theological beliefs ... else he would wipe us all out.

 

[Ruiz]

That is interesting, isn't it. Obviously Cary believed in free-will as well as election. I have said for several years that the truth lies in neither extreme. But I must say the Calvinist on this BB have convinced me that their position, and the position they try to paint for Calvin are in error. Also there are points in Calvinist beliefs that can be seen as in a direct line, through Augustine, to the Gnostic belief system.

All this debate probably shows us that God does have a sense of humor as he watches his children bicker over various theological beliefs ... else he would wipe us all out.

That is strange, I have a very similar belief as Carey. There are some slight differences I hold to his, but not in the area of election. He did reject Libertine Freewill, which I also reject. Freewill, in itself, is not rejected because it is Biblical, but the modern definition was very new in his day and he rejected it.

 

[Luke2427]

Both of us can have anecdotal evidence for such things and show individual churches on both sides who are very evangelistic and those who are every unevangelistic. Personally, the two most mission minded churches I have ever belonged to were Reformed. One of them is the my current church.

Yet, overall, there are some on both sides that are not evangelistic and some on both sides who are. However, traditionally Calvinists have been very evangelistic.

Right.

I have, since my conversion, had a passion for evangelism.

But the more Calvinistic I became the more fierce and white hot that passion grew.

It is that reformed fueled passion that drove the father of modern missions to his awesome success: William Carey.

It is that same DoG inspired passion that drove Jonathan Edwards to do his great work.

If they only knew what the Doctrines of Grace does to the heart of a follower of Christ- Spurgeon said it is like being saved all over again!

 

[preacher4truth]

The term Evangelistic Calvinist is an oxymoron. As the Calvinist said in the 19th Century about the missionary movement ... it isn't necessary, God will save those he elected. We do not need to tell them. ........... That was their belief and if modern Calvinist really believe what they are saying they would hold the same idea.

You take the words out of a bigger context from what I've read in the past. That, and one statement, even if contextually true, does NOT represent Calvinist brethren accurately.

The fact is the theology and passion of Calvinists is above and beyond that of arminians and non-cal theologies. There is also a greater passion for truth altogether, and this shows in the preaching/teaching among other works.

But let's not just focus on who in fact is more evangelistic (which IS Calvinism) but let's take a look at the "evangelistic" message/method itself.

Non-cal/arm theologies are based upon a more whimsical evangelism based on "Say this prayer if you want to go to heaven"; "...are you sure if you died you'd go to heaven? if not say this prayer." Show me where this is Biblical? This is NOT preaching the Gospel. It IS preaching a man made flaky formula of easy-believism. This focuses on man, a choice, and preaches a message which is NOT the Gospel WHATSOEVER. NOWHERE in Scripture did ANY missionary, apostle, preacher use this type of manipulation. Yet, in many many churches that are anti/non-cal this is exactly what they do. Where did parishioners, laymen &c get this type of message to preach? From their pastor leaders. You won't see this nonsense in a Cal/Reformed church, and thankfully so.

Calvinism doesn't focus, employ, nor embrace this easy-believism error.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke please source your claim that PCA "has 1,400 missionaries on the field!!!".

I am searching. I may have to apologize. I see there are 1400 churches in the PCA. I researched this stat about a week ago and may have gotten the figures mixed.

I am fixing to go to town. If I cannot find the figures I will offer an apology.

I will continue to argue this point due to what Ruiz rightly points out. Even if it is 600 missionaries rather than the 1400 I posted, it is still more than SBC.

Thank you for your patience as I try to research this today and I apologize for my numbers if I did indeed get them mixed up.