Lordship Salvation

No I am not! I am saying exactly what the bible teaches. We do not change, stop sinning, or even promise to stop sinning to be saved. We repent towards God and come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ then salvation changes us. Man is born with a bent against God being over them. We are born walking 180 degrees away from God and His authority. The one thing we do not want from birth is to have God rule over us. Learn the teaching of the slave and the piercing of the ear in the OT. At repentance we are turning 180 degrees to God for that rule. When that happens with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ He changes us, not us changing us. No believer will ever again practice sin. It is impossible to be in a state of repentance and a state of rebellion at the same time! No believer ever has to sin ever again. However because of the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life many will on occasions give in, in a given moment, but not live in it (practice it), because it is done with sorrow after that becauuse of what has happened to us in the new birth we confess and seek not to do it again. No believer practices sin 1John 3:9 because Jesus is their Lord and Master. Again learn the teaching of the slave and piercing of the ear in the OT.

 

What do I have to learn? You are NOW saying what I have always said. I have said many times in the past that the natural man will ALWAYS seek to save himself. I have shown how the Pharisee trusted in his own righteousness while the publican trusted in God's mercy. I have shown Luk 13:1-5 numerous times where Jesus shows these persons must repent of their self-righteousness or else they will perish. I have showed where the Sadducees and Pharisees came to John the Baptist, and John told them to "think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father", in other words, you cannot inherit salvation through the flesh.

I have been showing all these for two years, and now you tell me I need to learn?

I and others have OFTEN asked you what you mean by repentance, and you were evasive.

NOW you have finally come around, but you still attempt to make yourself appear as though you were always correct.

Humility is NOT your greatest virtue.

 

Honestly I don not know if I am humble or not. If not may the Lord change that. I certainty desire to be all the Lord calls me to be. I do know that I am not the best at getting into print what I am trying to convey in such a fashion that express how it would be done in spoken language.
I will say I know of no time I seek to be evasive. In fact most likely my desire to speak clearly is what most ruffles the feathers of many. I tell you and all again learn the OT teaching of the slave and the piercing of the ear as that is an example (picture) of repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Absolutely true yet only a few realize it. Amen:applause:
MB

 

I grant your point. We do have to remember that new believers are what we call baby Christians. It was not until years later that I came to understand some things about my conversion.

I also grant that what we're talking about is the sanctification process, but a new Christian may not use the correct language in describing what is going on in his life. Shoot, as a nine-year-old new believer, I had never even heard of sanctification.

But, at the same time, it raises the question, how were they taught? What kind of gospel was preached to them? Did the preacher or the witness use the correct language themselves in presenting the gospel?

 

I think it is funny because everyone is saying something somewhat similar here but from different angles. Anyway, of course we repent of sin. No it is not a work we dont have to try to find and count each individual sin then turn to Christ after we have stopped each individual sin. What is meant by repent of sin is turning from that lifestyle or that deadness it brings and embracing Christ instead. Our eyes are shifted from sinfulness to Christ and to Him we go. In that sense we repent of sin (turn from it). In the process we leave sinful things behind and for the rest of our lives keep repenting and believing. The point I think is vital is not to focus in and try to work out our sins perfecting ourselves. That is a silly and erred practice of holiness that ends up being a sefl-righteous mess half the time. The focus must be on Christ and through Him real the correct motives of repentance in relation to Him will happen. In this sense also we are under His Lordship with His respect or at least once we understand the gravity of who He is. Maybe this understanding needs to come first?

12 Strings: I dont have a problem of terms like rededication. Most terms carry a bad reputation and are misunderstood (and sometimes mishandled like people did with Paul's teaching of liberty under grace). Rededication to me is a repentance basically. A child might repent to the best of his or her knowledge and turning to Christ but also fall away down the road and come again to repentance (or rededication if you will). I think this is not such an easy topic to define when we introduce 5, 6, 7, and 8 year olds or people with minimal gospel knowledge or even mentally disabled people. Works are seen in so many different ways, but childlike works and repentance are what is desired. Its an interesting topic for sure.

 

true, yet they experience it

This is where it is hard for me to distinguish in who God is working on. I think fruits of repentance are necessary to some extent or the conversion is probably not true. We cannot get a grasp on some more difficult scenarios. Yet, I can relate to your comment because I was saved when I was 22 after being in church about 15 years already. I didn't know what repentance or faith were, but I naturally did in light of God. I think when we encounter His very nature there is no other right response but repentance and faith even if we do not get terminology. Later I learned terms and they became useful. Granted I was not a child and had experienced deeper levels of sin and thus was forgiven more if you will. In that sense when I was saved it was more dramatic.

Very true, I knew the shallow ask Jesus into your heart gospel. Funny story is that I was saved through reading Scripture (while unsaved). I saw Jesus the way He was and sin the way it was. God opened up my eyes at that time and changed me. I would say the 15 years I went to church the teaching did not do God much justice in making Him known (Or then again I could have been that blind). This is why shallow Gospels do not save, b/c nobody ever sees God like they need to. They come unfearfully to a loving God, but that love is never known because they do not know the weight and the cost of their sin that that love was expressed through. Or on the other hand, hell is over emphasized to a point where people come to God so they wont go there. This always proves false when the fear wears off so does the false convert. Again, God must be the motivation and all the implications from who He is are secondary factors (yes hell is scary and heaven is sweet, but neither solve our problems in themselves).

 

Repent of sin and no salvation is given. It takes repentance towards God. If He wanted us to repent of sin to get saved He would have said so. And no it is not even turning from a lifestyle. You are talking works salvation. The turn is a result of the salvation brought on by repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also no child of God falls away and needs to re-dedicate their life. 1John 3:9
If they leave (return to sinning) they were not saved to begin with. 1John 2:19

 

Not only does what your saying make no sense, but you are going against Peter's call to salvation in Acts 2 along with numerous other passages. You cant give yourself away to something without giving up another. when you say "repentance towards God" you mean you turn to God which is exactly what I said. Someone is living their life in sin (a direction not towards God) then when they hear the Gospel they see God and turn to God from whatever they were living for. You are arguing a silly point, and you can't turn your heart to God without turning it from something else, We can't serve two masters so we must give up one to follow the other. If we were all once slaves to sin and it was our master then we must have turned from it for God to become our new master.

You are over applying the passages to something that the Bible never intended to apply them to. What John is against is outright turning against foundational truths which is not the same as getting caught up in something or losing heart for awhile etc... Have you as a believer ever had ups and downs? Do you always have a perfect prayer life, do you acknoweldge God perfectly each and every day in giving him thanks? Do you ever get sidetracked with things this world has to offer? Have you ever been bitter in any way? Have you ever had something against someone at church? etc...

Again repentance is a continual thing we sinners will encounter throughout our lives. That does not mean we turn our backs on God and curse Him denying the faith or preaching heresy as those false prophets were doing by harming John's audience. A Gnostic is different than a believer who is in a low spot or who has unknowingly gotten himself into a rut.

 

FAL, I think you are a sincere fellow. I believe you want to know the truth. I am the same, I just want to know the truth.

Where we differ is this, I view sinners much like all the sick and crippled folks that came to Jesus, especially like the woman with an issue of blood. She had been to many doctors, but none could heal her.

Luk 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,

Salvation is not turning over a new leaf, it is not deciding to quit sinning. I think every honest person would say that is VERY difficult. Salvation is realizing that you CANNOT heal yourself. That is what we must repent of, believeing we can earn our own salvation through merit. It is like this poor woman who could not find healing. But she had faith, she had heard of Jesus healing people, she may have witnessed it. She believed Jesus was the promised Christ, the Son of God. And she knew if she but touched him she would be healed. And that is exactly what happened.

Mat 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

Did it take years for her to be healed? Let's see.

Luk 8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.

This is how salvation happens, IMMEDIATELY. It is not some drawn out process. Notice how Jesus told people who believed they were saved (past tense).

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

When we come to Jesus in faith, he heals us immediately. We are SAVED. We are a new creature, we have the Holy Spirit living in us and are sealed by the Spirit. You can't lose it.

We now have a new nature that naturally wants to obey and please God. You are correct that no true Christian practices sin, they now practice righteousness, because righteousness is now natural to them.

But... we still have the flesh, and the flesh wars against the Spirit. The flesh tempts us just like it did before we were saved. Before we were saved it was natural for us to follow and obey the flesh. Now it is natural for us to obey God. Nevertheless, we are now "babes" in Christ. A baby cannot talk, or walk, or hardly do anything at first. It is the same for a new Christian, he has to learn to walk and talk like a Christian. It takes time. The more a person feeds on the Word of God, the faster a Christian grows. Some folks remain babes in Christ for years, while some grow quickly, depending on one's personal committment to the word of God.

So, new babes in Christ will often fail, just like toddlers often fall and bump their head. But if we pray, read and study the Word of God, we will have victory over sin.

But we are SAVED IMMEDIATELY the moment we trust Jesus to save us.

 

I am in agreement with you as long as you are not suggesting that a new believer sometimes practices sin. It is one thing not to know that a certain thing is sin, but altogether different to know it is. The believer does not practice sin once they know something is sin. They may have to be in a serious battle, but they are in the battle. As far as the flesh warring against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh that comes from Gal. and you are taking it out of context as that passage is speaking of the those who want to be perfected by the flesh rather then by the spirit. If you look at it the previous verse says this;
[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

A new believer can practice sin. A fellow may be an alcoholic and come to the Salvation Army for a meal. He hears the gospel and is truly sorry for his sin, he confesses and trusts Christ for salvation. Is he still an alcoholic? Yes. He may now desire to quit drinking and struggle with it, he might not ever truly have victory over it. Is he still saved? If he truly came to Jesus in his heart the answer is yes.

An example of this is Lot. He, his two daughters, and wife escaped with only what they could carry. He lived in a cave. But what did he have? Alcohol! His daughters got him drunk twice, and not just a little drunk, he had relations with both daughters over two nights and didn't even know it! Now that is drunk. And isn't it amazing that he made sure to have wine? But we know from the NT that Lot was saved.

As I heard a preacher once say, "Trusting Jesus will not solve all your problems, but it will solve your BIGGEST problem."

You can't always judge folks by their actions, God sees the heart.

 

A believer, whether new or mature, cannot practice sin; at least not if you use the word practice as it is rendered in Scripture.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Can a believer, new or mature, sin? Certainly. The question is whether they habitually practice sin. Is their life defined by their sin? Do they labor at sinning?

Believers cannot practice sin. Believers do practice righteousness (2 Cor. 5:17).

 

First off salvation is not received by feeling sorry for our sin and confessing and trusting Christ for salvation. It takes repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And no not even a new convert who was an alcoholic practices sin. Such were some of you. 1Cor 6. Not such are some of you. Here in lies the problem with the church today. Many seek ways to deny the word of God to make their teaching above those of God.

While an alcoholic or drug addict has their specific problems to deal with so do we all. No one who is born of God practices sin. 1John 3:9
At salvation the ability to practice sin has ended because of the indwelling Spirit. No longer will any believer ever practice sin. We may still have temptations in many areas, and from time to time fail in any given moment, but we no longer practice sin. Sinning is not that whch defines a true believers daily life, righteous living is. The issue is not if they can practice sin but when they really get saved. A many a persons make professions who do not get saved, and continue in their sin trying to overcome themselves until some later date they do get saved and are finally set free. Again no one who is born of God practices sin.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

Well said! :thumbs:

 

Think that IF on holds to soltierology as a cal, would still need to be listed under cal theology, as all the rest would fit under wethger one tended to see it from a presby/reformed/other baptist prespective!

 

How long would a christian be doing a sinful practice before becoming a "practice?"

IF a person has been saved by the grace of God...

WHERE in the Bible, other than the case of extreme measures that forces God to call them home by an early death. as judgement upon their sinful practices...

When would the christian be unable to confess and be fully restored abck to God?

 

Do you remember the passage where the Apostle paul listed a same type of listing for sinners, but "as such WERE some of you", but now cleansed and fully restored by the blood of the Lord jesus !

A person can be truely saved, still have sin principle at war within in, and can still fall at times to submitting to his fleshlydesires, but the HS will bring him to confess/repent/forsake, just that matter of timing, not ALL get restored at same time, as each decided just when they will come back to the Father!

Difference is the child of God WILL come back, some sooner, some later, while those 'faking it" , not really saved, never get out of the mire!

 

You keep asking the same question and keep getting the same answers.