was The LAW Given To Isreal, or Also To the Church?

So are you keeping those two commands you mentioned?

Matt 23:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Because if not;
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
So where are you at with this based on what the bible says?

 

Like I said, Date rape.You might want to check out the JW's they have a code book to explain how the bible does not mean what it says.

 

Are you missing the point of John's statement?

Or, are you stating, yes, I agree with John that a person who doesn't love God and doesn't love their neighbor is a liar...?

Are you equating not keeping his commandments as a condition of breach of contract (covenant) in which the believer would then be eternally separated from God?

Just to make sure of your statement let's clarify.

John states that when one sins it doesn't make them an unbeliever. Rather, the lack of rebuke upon sin it is that which is an indicator that person is in fact a liar and fraud.

First he addresses a believer who is in fellowship and one who is a fraud. Then he addresses the believer that sins in comparison to the fraud.

"This then is the message which we have heard of him (of Christ), and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Italics inserted for emphasis by me.

The believer is not under any obligation to keep any commandment other than as I posted earlier.

We are to walk in the light of God. There is no darkness in Him.

However, there are those who are deceitful (frauds)- who say they walk in light but remain darkness.

The believer who sins (strays from the Love of God and the Love of neighbor) is put through a cleansing process as John states.

The unbeliever (even one who claims they believe but is in fact a fraud) may continue to willfully fulfill all sin and remain un-rebuked by God. They may certainly be rebuked by the natural world that would infect or afflict the body. God does not chasten whom he doesn't love.

John did not dispute John. Certainly you aren't attempting to make John do so, are you?

 

agedman;1764155

Are you missing the point of John's statement?

NOPE!

Or, are you stating, yes, I agree with John that a person who doesn't love God and doesn't love their neighbor is a liar...?

Yes they are a liar and do not know the Lord (they are lost), that is the point.

Are you equating not keeping his commandments as a condition of breach of contract (covenant) in which the believer would then be eternally separated from God?

No if a person is not keeping the commandments they are not believers, they are lost.

 

Use the search feature and read my posts on the matter or click here and listen.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3

 

That is beacuse you use date rape in reading what is written. Listen to this;
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3

 

Ok, I can agree with you that a person who doesn't love God or who doesn't love their neighbor might be a fraud - but they may not be a fraud.

In our human condition there are times circumstances of life conspire against the believer. Sickness, sadness, loss can all work on the emotional/psychological/physical well being to cause doubt and distress to the breaking point. Job is an example.

Some think that Job, without sinning, got through the sudden and overwhelming attacks heaped upon him by the enemy . That is a most wrong assumption.

Job sinned, but that did not separate or break the covenant relationship he had with God. In fact, God came a visited with him personally about the matter.

The breaking of a commandment does not automatically place a person outside of God's camp (so to speak). Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Jonah, Peter, Paul,... are all examples of folks who sinned (broke at least one commandment) and I would say willfully, for each new what they did was wrong, and yet the covenant relationship of each to God was not broken.

Once that relationship is established between God and a believer "Nothing can separate us..."

You are correct in part by the statement, "if a person is not keeping the commandments they are not believers, they are lost" but John most certainly does put a huge qualifier to prevent the thinking of the believer can again be lost.

The qualifier is "rebuke."

A person (even one who claims they are a believer) that lives a life that isn't rebuked in some area (or many as in my case) is certainly a fraud according to John.

But a person who occasionally (or in my case continually) is rebuked by the Father (for I am the most unworthy of any of God's children), is driven to and cannot help but repent, and will be and is cleansed (not at all pleasant) - That person according to John is NOT a fraud.

It is NOT the keeping or breaking commandments that John is getting at, it is the response of the Father toward His own children and the child's response to the Father versus the unregenerate heathen.

We are to be as "little children" in this matter of responding to the Father.

I am reminded of when I came home one evening, and my son greeted me with, "Daddy, I broke the ..." Just my presence alone compelled the admission and repentance. The same with the believer. The very presence of the Father in our life obliges the confession in shame and self abhorrence of our sinful behavior.

This in turn is also extrapolated to the other believers. For we treat each other with tenderheartedness and forgiveness. Not for cunning deceitfulness, but because the "love of God is shed abroad in our hearts." Forgiving each other - even as Christ forgave us.

I am sorry for the long posts!

I just don't seem to be able to compact the thinking!

And being an "agedman" tend to wander.

 

Thank you for sharing your views, but I think I will stick with what is written instead of " I believe that, except or but." No offense.
I would suggest that you listen to this;
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3

 

Adrien Rodgers (I never could remember if it had a "d" in the last name or not) in the link you posted states three traits or birthmarks:

1. A true believer who is someone who is submitted to the Lord Jesus (Christ).

2. A true believer seeks the lifestyle of the Lord Jesus (Christ).

3. A true believer shows (demonstrates) love of Christ by the love of the brother.

Christ said that there were TWO commands that were to be kept and that all the law as surrounded by these two.

The two were to Love God and to Love the neighbor.

This is EXACTLY what Adrian Rodgers is stating and it is in TOTAL agreement with what I have posted on this thread.

Either you are attempting to make more of what he (Adrian) said or he (John) said, or He (Christ) said about the matter, for they are all in agreement, or are you trying to gain insight and clarification? Perhaps you are in a personal battle and would like to speak more freely about this matter in private. If so, email me or some other that you consider would give you that Scriptural insight to help guide your steps. Some know the ropes better than others, and you can discern who to trust and not.

The believer does not keep the law out of command and fear, but keeps the instructions of Christ out of love. "Perfect love casts out fear."

 

No you are changing what is being said. Adrian is speaking about the commandments 10 of them minus the Sabbath. The Lord was saying that they are kept by those who love God. They are what we set our hear ton out of love. True believers keep the commandments.

 

This is the third time I have attempted to respond and the thread keeps timing me out and deleting what I write. Sorry for the delay!!!!

First, the speaker (Adrian Rodgers) said he had three points to show a person was a believer.

They were:
1. A true believer who is someone who is submitted to the Lord Jesus (Christ).

2. A true believer seeks the lifestyle of the Lord Jesus (Christ).

3. A true believer shows (demonstrates) love of Christ by the love of the brother.


NONE of the three points are contingent upon "keeping the commandments."

He does speak that the believer has the desire to keep the commandments, but he doesn't put them as the highest priority as the one, two, three of the message.

Secondly. If a believer does point one, two, and three then it follows that the commandments will generally be followed.

Third. The Scriptures teach that no one has been able to keep the commandments all the time. That is why we have Christ.

If you are attempting to supplant the sovereignty of God in Christ by stating that keeping the commandments is proof positive of salvation - then you are wrong.

Christ said that love was the proof.

Paul said that without love we are but a tiny wind chime.

Peter said that before you can express the Love as God does, there is a stair step of attributes that need to be added to the faith God has given. You can't have God's kind of Love if you first don't have virtue. (see 1 Peter)

Lastly, the believer is not to "set their heart upon" the commandments. They are given a commission. The quest given by the Creator should dominate our living. We are to live our lives with passion, promise, and purpose.

Passion for the God in Christ who first loved us...

Promise of the hope that He has placed in His working through us...

Purpose that will not fade by taking heed in what is built upon the faith God has given.

 

You must not have listened to the message. He clearly states that if a person is not keeping the commandments they are not saved and that is what the bible teaches. 1 John 2

 

Yes, I listened, but somehow your missing the point of what he was saying and the Scriptures state, and NO (as I have posted) the Scriptures do not teach what you are imposing.

Michah records the words from God. He is stating that the keeping of the law is NOT what the lord requires.

"Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

You are selecting a very small portion of what the man said and attempting to build a doctrine that just doesn't stand.

One can almost parallel Micah's words with that major points of Adrian Rodgers.

1. A true believer who is someone who is submitted to the Lord Jesus (Christ). Micah - do justly

2. A true believer seeks the lifestyle of the Lord Jesus (Christ). Micah - love mercy

3. A true believer shows (demonstrates) love of Christ by the love of the brother. Micah - walk humbly

The Bible teaches as Adrian Rodgers preached more than once, that no believer is held accountable for keeping the law. He was a man of Scriptures and the Scriptures state:

"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man (Christ) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. "

and again:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

and again:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

and again:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."


The just live by faith. Because Christ is the fulfillment of all the law, and we follow Christ if follows that we will emulate the character and nature of Christ. However, the commandments are kept not by demand and not by a display of the state of salvation, and definitely NOT because we are forced into compliance.

Adrian Rodgers knew this, and his preaching reflected the appropriate teaching of the Scriptures - that no man is justified by or kept the law.

 

There is another point to make and that is about the law being a part of all human kind.

The Scriptures say:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

To paraphrase. The law of God is imprinted upon EVERY human's heart whether they are saved or not.

And therefore they are without excuse when God shall judge the "secrets of men" and hold them to the standard of Jesus Christ.

The standard of Christ EXCEEDED the law.

Remember when Christ told the people, "You have heard it said ... but I say..." and each time he not only stated the law, but extended the application. So, not only in the natural state can we not keep the law, but ONLY through Christ living in and through us is it possible realize the extended.

Therefore, if as you say the keeping of the law is a peculiar sign of salvation, then the whole world would be saved and the death of Christ totally unnecessary.

 

I did not say we had to keep the law. I said what the bible says which is if a person is not keeping the commandments they are not saved. That is also what Adrian Rogers said.

 

Again you are adding to what I have said. I never said we are to keep the law. The bible says is we say we know Him and do not keep the commandments we are a liar (not saved).