Can A Christian refuse believers baptism And not be Sinning?

[MB]

As I have posted the words by Peter do not constitute a command. Peter was exhorting, testifying. When the people asked he told them the processes. Look back at the underlined words of the context.

Just because you disagree with it, does not make your disagreement valid

If as you claim Peter were to command baptism, that would raise baptism to the level of belief for salvation. Peter did not state that one had to be baptized to gain salvation.

To someone who believes they are regenerated with out faith you discount the things that are needed for Salvation. Faith is required for Salvation. It's required before Salvation and regeneration is Salvation. Baptism may not be necessary for Salvation. However baptism of the Holy Spirit is required for the indwelling.

I disagree. First because "Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of..." That is the sorrow of this world and the repentance of this world work nothing but death. In contrast, the person who is drawn to Christ by the work of the Father experiences Godly sorrow and repentance.

It's called conviction over what you have done with your life. The people you have hurt. Yes we have all stepped on someone some where.

Second, The person being indwelt by the Spirit is not conditioned upon baptism.

Then there must not be any baptism of the Spirit. According to you.

The Holy Spirit is given to the believer by God for specific reasons and mere mortal man does not prevent God's gift.

Where does scripture say that the Holy Spirit is given with out Baptism of the Holy Spirit or the Laying on of hands? Please show me where you got this from. I need to see it in scripture

Where do I start? I will give a short itemized statement.

First, Unless God has already done a work in the person to quicken their awareness of the need of Christ, God's measure of faith being implanted in them, and the placement of a new nature within, the person cannot proclaim Christ as their savior, except they lie. The birth of a believer is not unlike that of a birth of child. Evidence of life is the cry. Life is not based upon the cry, nor does the cry bring life.

No where have I implied that a person can not be saved if not baptized. This is your own notion.
That measure of faith you spoke of is the convincing of the gospel not regeneration. The birth of a believer is nothing like the birth of a child. That's exactly what Nicodemus thought and we all know it was wrong.

Second, Certainly there is no doubt that God "wills" that all believer's be baptized, but that doesn't move it into the realm of command.

The ten commandments are God's will and like them Baptism is a command because it is God's will. Do we dare not to do God's will?

Believers resist and dismiss the leading of the Holy Spirit every day. The Holy Spirit doesn't carry a base drum, but a very small voice. In the din of living and life experiences, the Spirit of God is easily ignored.

Just as it is before Salvation. It's called freewill. Although this freewill has been limited. Resist His will once you belong to Him and you suffer the consequences of His correction. Jonah suffered and so have I on occasion. Scripture says "with out correction we are none of His"

If one (as Cowper) is raised in deprivation of love and cannot rationally accept God's love, does that mean they cannot be saved? John Newton didn't think so. It matters not what the reason one hesitates or refuses baptism.

What John Newton thought is irrelevant. Only scripture counts in matters of doctrine.

What really matters that the believer has and will miss out on one of the most high holy worship experiences that is available to them. Given appropriate teaching, and gentle encouragement, the believer will be submissive to the ordinance

With out knowing it your self, by calling it an ordinance. You are admitting it's law. Laws are commandments.

At no time is the ordinance a command, nor is it to be taken as a qualifier of the state of one's relationship to Christ in salvation.

If true then why is it most would have to disagree. You see Baptism is required for membership in most churches. That makes it a qualifier. Baptism is a wonderful experince and it improves our relationship with Christ because in so doing we are doing it according to His will and in doing so lies it's importance.

Being with in God's will, I believe, is where every Christian should desire to be. I just can't think of a better place to be on this earth than being in His will.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, we shouldn't baptize anyone any longer, like many of us were, AT salvation. Rather, they should have a thorough understanding of the doctrine of baptism first, and take a course in what baptism means culturally. I mean, that is what Jesus taught, correct?

Maybe they shouldn't get saved either, until they understand the many theologies and angles of soteriology, then take a test after several classes.

Maybe they shouldn't join or go to church until they have a good theological understanding of ecclesiology, then they can go to a few classes, then they can come to church. You wouldn't want them to come unless they were knowledgable and genuine you know.

Perhaps they shouldn't repent of their sins, until they understand hamartiology, and the doctrine of repentance, then they can take a class, and we can examine their wool, and determine if it is to our liking.

Yes, none should be received, nor should their salvation be thought of as genuine or valid enough to follow the Lords command to baptize believers until they pass these rigorous tests we set in order.

When did jesus say baptism MUST occur in life of a Christian?
Hint, its after making them disciples!

When did paul state that it MUST happen?
Hint, he was glad did few of them, much more into preaching the risen Christ!

 

[preacher4truth]

When did jesus say baptism MUST occur in life of a Christian?
Hint, its after making them disciples!

When did paul state that it MUST happen?
Hint, he was glad did few of them, much more into preaching the risen Christ!

Hint? :laugh:

Here's a hint for you:

Act_2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Act_8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

Act_18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.


Act_19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here's another hint for you:

Those that received his word were baptized; when they believed Philip, they were baptized; when the Corinthians heard and believed, they were baptized; "when they heard this" they were baptized.


...and yet more:

Not when they became disciples were they baptized, but instead when they believed at the time they heard.

What I see going on here is a failure of people to believe that the Gospel saves immediately, and to take things into their own hands, as if a person can make assurance real by their own efforts. Not so. What is happening is the making of persons into those with mere mental assension, none of which causes regeneration. The preaching of the Gospel is what causes regeneration, and that immediately, not the going through a class for 6 weeks or whatever. Somehow preachers think, and prove they think this, that if a person can answer some Bible questions then they feel more comfortable that they are saved. Again, that is nothing more than mental assension. It doesn't prove they are saved because they can answer theological questions.

I've seen this done in churches where the "new membership class will take place at such and such a date." Then, in the classes they are taught answers to questions. Then they ask them to answer them, and if they now know enough to get baptized, and if so they can be presented for baptism. Tell me that these folks are regenerated by this? This isn't even remotely Scriptural, it's training men and women to give mental assent answers to questions. It proves nothing.

There is nothing magical about that room they go to, or in the test, nor in the class. The power is in the Gospel preached, not in mans methods. Somehow man has become more comfortable with his own methods than that of preaching the Gospel. BTW, one even teaches in his material that no one gets saved by hearing the Gospel preached. He's an SBC preacher right down the road, and he isn't the only one around here teaching this.

The Scriptures I gave are clear. The power of salvation is in believing the Gospel preached, Romans 1:16. Baptism was when they believed.

 

[preacher4truth]

I see that a lot of what is being said here, by those refusing immediate baptism to believers is summed up in one word as to what they are feeling: "fear."

Fear if they are really saved, fear if they understand, fear it is not real, fear they don't know what's at stake &c.

How much did you know when you recognized you were saved? For most that I know, not much was understood other than they knew they were saved.

A good old-fashioned return to believing in the power of the Gospel, not our efforts, to regenerate persons is in order for the church.

 

[Amy.G]

How much did you know when you recognized you were saved? For most that I know, not much was understood other than they knew they were saved.

I almost hate to post this (because someone will surely declare that I "wasn't reeeeeaaallly" saved), but I knew practically nothing when I was saved. I knew I was going to hell without God. After I received salvation I wanted to be baptized. I don't recall anyone telling me to, I just wanted it. I think it was God's Spirit telling me in my heart...could it be?? :tongue3:
I wasn't baptized until 2 or 3 months after I was saved, but not because someone delayed it.
It wasn't until after I was saved that I wanted to learn all that God says in His beautiful book. :love2: Before, scripture just didn't make sense.
After reading this thread, I don't care for the idea of trying to "be sure" someone is saved. That is between them and God. We cannot know a person's heart. If they desire baptism, I think it would be sin to deny it. A new member's class if they want to join the church is a great idea IMO. My church offers that.

A good old-fashioned return to believing in the power of the Gospel, not our efforts, to regenerate persons is in order for the church.

Amen to that!

 

[preacher4truth]

I almost hate to post this (because someone will surely declare that I "wasn't reeeeeaaallly" saved), but I knew practically nothing when I was saved. I knew I was going to hell without God. After I received salvation I wanted to be baptized. I don't recall anyone telling me to, I just wanted it. I think it was God's Spirit telling me in my heart...could it be?? :tongue3:
I wasn't baptized until 2 or 3 months after I was saved, but not because someone delayed it.
It wasn't until after I was saved that I wanted to learn all that God says in His beautiful book. :love2: Before, scripture just didn't make sense.
After reading this thread, I don't care for the idea of trying to "be sure" someone is saved. That is between them and God. We cannot know a person's heart. If they desire baptism, I think it would be sin to deny it. A new member's class if they want to join the church is a great idea IMO. My church offers that.


Amen to that!

Amy, we will need you to send in a wool sample, from your left armpit, preferably from AFTER you shower so we can examine it and test the DNA for determinitive purposes! :laugh:

:thumbsup:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, we will need you to send in a wool sample, from your left armpit, preferably from AFTER you shower so we can examine it and test the DNA for determinitive purposes! :laugh:

:thumbsup:

HAHAHAHA! What if the DNA shows I'm not really me?

 

[JesusFan]

Hint? :laugh:

Here's a hint for you:

Act_2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Act_8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

Act_18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.


Act_19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here's another hint for you:

Those that received his word were baptized; when they believed Philip, they were baptized; when the Corinthians heard and believed, they were baptized; "when they heard this" they were baptized.


...and yet more:

Not when they became disciples were they baptized, but instead when they believed at the time they heard.

What I see going on here is a failure of people to believe that the Gospel saves immediately, and to take things into their own hands, as if a person can make assurance real by their own efforts. Not so. What is happening is the making of persons into those with mere mental assension, none of which causes regeneration. The preaching of the Gospel is what causes regeneration, and that immediately, not the going through a class for 6 weeks or whatever. Somehow preachers think, and prove they think this, that if a person can answer some Bible questions then they feel more comfortable that they are saved. Again, that is nothing more than mental assension. It doesn't prove they are saved because they can answer theological questions.

I've seen this done in churches where the "new membership class will take place at such and such a date." Then, in the classes they are taught answers to questions. Then they ask them to answer them, and if they now know enough to get baptized, and if so they can be presented for baptism. Tell me that these folks are regenerated by this? This isn't even remotely Scriptural, it's training men and women to give mental assent answers to questions. It proves nothing.

There is nothing magical about that room they go to, or in the test, nor in the class. The power is in the Gospel preached, not in mans methods. Somehow man has become more comfortable with his own methods than that of preaching the Gospel. BTW, one even teaches in his material that no one gets saved by hearing the Gospel preached. He's an SBC preacher right down the road, and he isn't the only one around here teaching this.

The Scriptures I gave are clear. The power of salvation is in believing the Gospel preached, Romans 1:16. Baptism was when they believed.

just curious, ewhat would be the resul;ts of the timing of the baptism IF we went outside Acts, into the Epistles themselves?

 

[preacher4truth]

just curious, ewhat would be the resul;ts of the timing of the baptism IF we went outside Acts, into the Epistles themselves?

Go for it.

 

[preacher4truth]

HAHAHAHA! What if the DNA shows I'm not really me?

We will determine if it's you or not! :tongue3:

And ifn dats yourn hair-do, we'd be askeerd to see yer armpits!!!!! :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

I almost hate to post this (because someone will surely declare that I "wasn't reeeeeaaallly" saved), but I knew practically nothing when I was saved. I knew I was going to hell without God. After I received salvation I wanted to be baptized. I don't recall anyone telling me to, I just wanted it. I think it was God's Spirit telling me in my heart...could it be?? :tongue3:
I wasn't baptized until 2 or 3 months after I was saved, but not because someone delayed it.
It wasn't until after I was saved that I wanted to learn all that God says in His beautiful book. :love2: Before, scripture just didn't make sense.
After reading this thread, I don't care for the idea of trying to "be sure" someone is saved. That is between them and God. We cannot know a person's heart. If they desire baptism, I think it would be sin to deny it. A new member's class if they want to join the church is a great idea IMO. My church offers that.


Amen to that!

Amy you are sooo right. No one should ever be put off being Baptized once saved to be examined. First get saved then get baptized.

 

[JesusFan]

Amy you are sooo right. No one should ever be put off being Baptized once saved to be examined. First get saved then get baptized.

isn't that best left up to each individual baptist church though?

 

[freeatlast]

isn't that best left up to each individual baptist church though?

I think that is what is happening but it is costly.

In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.
Today in many churches there is no King, just each church doing what is right in their own eyes. I assume your church does that, correct?

 

[agedman]

I think that is what is happening but it is costly.

In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.
Today in many churches there is no King, just each church doing what is right in their own eyes. I assume your church does that, correct?

It is given to the church to determine who is authorized to baptize, when and where the baptism is to take place.

It isn't a mater of what is "right in their own eyes." It is what Christ has determined; that the local assembly is allowed to schedule the ordinance(s) for their own assemblies' reasons .

Which is another reason that it is an ordinance and not a command.

 

[freeatlast]

It is given to the church to determine who is authorized to baptize, when and where the baptism is to take place.

It isn't a mater of what is "right in their own eyes." It is what Christ has determined; that the local assembly is allowed to schedule the ordinance(s) for their own assemblies' reasons .

Which is another reason that it is an ordinance and not a command.

Show me that in the bible. Show me that the church can just disregard the command, set certain ones to baptize, disregard the examples, and do what they want, when they want, to whom they want. Show me!
Certainly what you are suggesting is exactly what is happening today but like the saying not all Israel is really Israel not all the church is the church. Many will say Lord, Lord. They decide in their own eyes what is and is not right instead of obeying the word of God.They have an outward appearnace, but
inwardly are dead. Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Baptism is a command.

 

[freeatlast]

isn't that best left up to each individual baptist church though?

I think today most churches follow that prescription, but as for me and my house we will follow the Lord.

 

[agedman]

Show me that in the bible. Show me that the church can just disregard the command, set certain ones to baptize, disregard the examples, and do what they want, when they want, to whom they want. Show me!
What you are suggesting is exactly what is happening today but like the saying not all Israel is really Israel not all the church is the church. Many will say Lord, Lord. They decide in their own eyes what is and is not right instead of obeying the word of God.

I never stated the church "can just disregard the command." First because it isn't a command, second the church has total control over the ordinances' observance as far as timing and how often or not. This is no new doctrine, but held as factual from the time of the apostles.

As far as Scriptures, I refer you to a previous thread that dealt with the ordinance of the Lord's Super and Paul's instructions.

I never stated that ALL Israel is not really Israel, that the church is all the church, and that no one will claim to be Jews who are not.

I agree that much of the modern church is controlled and submissive to a spirit of antichrist. That is part of the last days, and the church will continue to be lukewarm until the end of this age. The church will embrace the antichrist, as the Scriptures teach.

However, that is no reason to state something is (as you would about the ordinance of baptism) something that it is not.

 

[agedman]

I think today most churches follow that prescription, but as for me and my house we will follow the Lord.

So, you and your house constitute the total membership of the church you attend?

I get the idea of you pulling your house as a trailer following the Lord. Perhaps you use a camper shell on the truck, or do you use a fifth wheel on a dully?

 

[freeatlast]

I never stated the church "can just disregard the command." First because it isn't a command, second the church has total control over the ordinances' observance as far as timing and how often or not. This is no new doctrine, but held as factual from the time of the apostles.

As far as Scriptures, I refer you to a previous thread that dealt with the ordinance of the Lord's Super and Paul's instructions.

I never stated that ALL Israel is not really Israel, that the church is all the church, and that no one will claim to be Jews who are not.

I agree that much of the modern church is controlled and submissive to a spirit of antichrist. That is part of the last days, and the church will continue to be lukewarm until the end of this age. The church will embrace the antichrist, as the Scriptures teach.

However, that is no reason to state something is (as you would about the ordinance of baptism) something that it is not.

Well let me ask you something about this total control. Does that mean that God has given them the right to choose get drunk off the wine and feast off the bread if they want? You know party time. So is it total control or just example control within what is written?

 

[freeatlast]

So, you and your house constitute the total membership of the church you attend?

I get the idea of you pulling your house as a trailer following the Lord. Perhaps you use a camper shell on the truck, or do you use a fifth wheel on a dully?

No unlike you me and my house follow the Lord even if the rest of the church is not. :smilewinkgrin: We are followers, but not of the church as you are. You don't happen to be catholic or have catholic background do you, because they follow the church.