Questions for Calvinists

[Moriah]

Calvinists say we are born again first and then enabled to believe; however, the scriptures say we believe first, and then given the Holy Spirit, then we are born again.

I have some questions for Calvinists. I sincerely hope that someone here can answer my questions.

Calvinists believe that no one can accept God on their own. They believe that God causes people to believe by the Holy Spirit. Apostle Paul patiently and with detail explained how Jesus saves us, so why does Paul not say anything about the Holy Spirit causing us to believe.

Question one: Calvinists believe that no one can accept God on their own. Which scripture or scriptures say that? Explain why it does not say that anywhere in the Bible.

Read Galatians 3:2. In Galatians 3:2 we read that Paul asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

Question 2: Why did Paul not say something like 'I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by God giving you His Spirit so that you can believe?’

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Question 3: In Romans 10:17, why does Paul not say something different like, 'Consequently, faith comes from the Holy Spirit enabling you to believe, and therefore allowing you to accept the message'?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Question 4: Why did Paul not say '...which is at work in you who were enabled to believe'? I mean, Paul is taking time to explain carefully to the Thessalonians, so why not explain more adequately.

Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Question five: Why in Hebrews 4:2 did Paul not say something like, 'For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard were not enabled to have faith to believe it'?

In Romans 5:1-2 we are told "...we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

We have gained access by faith...there is no mention of the access in which Calvinism teaches, and that is having access by the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism as a whole adds to Romans 5:1-2. Romans 5:1-2 is complete and accurate on how we get access to grace. Paul is revealing something extremely important here; he is explaining how we get access. Paul is explaining how we get access, and he does not say we get access the way Calvinists say, and that is by the Holy Spirit enabling us to have faith.

If you know Calvinism, then you know that Calvinists believe we can only have access to grace by faith that God has enabled to believers by the Holy Spirit.

Again, this scripture has Paul explaining how believers get access. In addition, nowhere does it say through enabling of the Holy Spirit.

Paul's explanation is accurate and complete. To say otherwise would be to distrust what Paul is saying.

 

[billwald]

Most Calvinists don't use the term "born again." We describe the process as regeneration and then conversion. We convert (confess that Jesus is Lord) when we realize that the Holy Spirit has regenerates us.

 

[savedbymercy]

moriah

Calvinists say we are born again first and then enabled to believe;

Yes, Faith to believe is a Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[billwald]

Anyway, I'm a Christian, not a Paulist.

Can you construct your Gospel from the Gospels, James, and John?

Anyway, Paul probably didn't write the Pastorals and Hebrews.

>Read Galatians 3:2. In Galatians 3:2 we read that Paul asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

How would they know? It is a goofy question. Many Calvinists and other Christians can't remember a time when they didn't "believe in" Jesus. How would they be able to answer the question?

Galatians is poor writing and I don't know how anyone can develop doctrine from it. Paul's writing is like hearing one half of a telephone conversation. It doesn't make without knowing the other half of the conversation.

 

[preacher4truth]

Anyway, I'm a Christian, not a Paulist.

Can you construct your Gospel from the Gospels, James, and John?

Anyway, Paul probably didn't write the Pastorals and Hebrews.

>Read Galatians 3:2. In Galatians 3:2 we read that Paul asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

How would they know? It is a goofy question. Many Calvinists and other Christians can't remember a time when they didn't "believe in" Jesus. How would they be able to answer the question?

Galatians is poor writing and I don't know how anyone can develop doctrine from it. Paul's writing is like hearing one half of a telephone conversation. It doesn't make without knowing the other half of the conversation.

Christians do know the answer to the question in Galatians here. It's an awesome question, to which, if one cannot answer, such a condition would be quite revealing of a person.

The Holy Spirit wrote these words through Paul, I am sorry you cannot discern them. You must reflect on this in connection with 1 Corinthians 2.

- Peace

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinists say we are born again first and then enabled to believe; however, the scriptures say we believe first, and then given the Holy Spirit, then we are born again.

Hello Moriah...
It happens at the same time

.

I have some questions for Calvinists. I sincerely hope that someone here can answer my questions.

great sounds good..lets see what you have


.

Calvinists believe that no one can accept God on their own

Yes,,,,because of the fall men are unable to come to God ...unless God draws them to faith..Jn 6:37-44.
No one....accepts God...God makes us accepted in the beloved

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

They believe that God causes people to believe by the Holy Spirit

Yes..the scripture teaches this.

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Apostle Paul patiently and with detail explained how Jesus saves us, so why does Paul not say anything about the Holy Spirit causing us to believe.

.

Sure he did:
4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Question one: Calvinists believe that no one can accept God on their own. Which scripture or scriptures say that?

Psalm 14:1-3..quoted by Paul in Romans 3

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Explain why it does not say that anywhere in the Bible.

I cannot explain what you say...because it says it in several places in the bible...like this-

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Read Galatians 3:2. In Galatians 3:2 we read that Paul asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

Question 2: Why did Paul not say something like 'I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by God giving you His Spirit so that you can believe?’

Because that is not what he was talking about...he is speaking of a works gospel/ or a grace gospel

[QUOTERomans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Question 3: In Romans 10:17, why does Paul not say something different like, 'Consequently, faith comes from the Holy Spirit enabling you to believe, and therefore allowing you to accept the message'?]

because he has already explained it earlier in the book,and in his other letters

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Question 4: Why did Paul not say '...which is at work in you who were enabled to believe'? I mean, Paul is taking time to explain carefully to the Thessalonians, so why not explain more adequately

because he has already explained it earlier in the book,and in his other letters

Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Question five: Why in Hebrews 4:2 did Paul not say something like, 'For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard were not enabled to have faith to believe it'?

We do not know for sure that Paul wrote Hebrews.The Holy Spirit who moved upon the writers of scripture does not have to repeat himself over and over,having already made it clear.....men are fully responsible to believe,they cannot unless God allows them to.

[QUOTEIn Romans 5:1-2 we are told "...we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

We have gained access by faith...there is no mention of the access in which Calvinism teaches, and that is having access by the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism as a whole adds to Romans 5:1-2. Romans 5:1-2 is complete and accurate on how we get access to grace. Paul is revealing something extremely important here; he is explaining how we get access. Paul is explaining how we get access, and he does not say we get access the way Calvinists say, and that is by the Holy Spirit enabling us to have faith.
][/QUOTE]
men are never saved ...because of faith...they are saved BY, OR THROUGH Faith.....never because of. Jesus is the author and finisher of faith
saving faith is the gift of God.

If you know Calvinism, then you know that Calvinists believe we can only have access to grace by faith that God has enabled to believers by the Holy Spirit.

yes...that is the biblical teaching

[QUOTEAgain, this scripture has Paul explaining how believers get access. In addition, nowhere does it say through enabling of the Holy Spirit.

Paul's explanation is accurate and complete. To say otherwise would be to distrust what Paul is saying.[/QUOTE]
][/QUOTE]


No... we understand exactly what Paul is saying

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[12strings]

ICON: Very good responses. I actually read your whole post because I thought you might have some good things to say.

That said, I usually don't read your posts because the way you format them makes it so hard to follow the line of argument, and it is hard to tell who is saying what. Try experimenting a bit to see if you can make your quotes more clear. The trick, if you quote a whole post, is to go to the end and delete the

at the end of the quote, then go back and individually quote each section you want to respond to.

Thanks again for your good comments


***notice the "Oreo" format of this post (compliment, criticism compliment)? I've heard that is supposed to help someone receive criticism better...You'll have to tell me if it works...especially if I tell you what I'm doing:laugh:

 

[12strings]

I will add this to ICONs responses:

MORIAH: Calvinism as a whole adds to Romans 5:1-2. Romans 5:1-2 is complete and accurate on how we get access to grace.

-Then why did paul have to write 16 chapters...if these 2 verses are all we need? :thumbs:

 

[David Lamb]

Most Calvinists don't use the term "born again."

Don't they, Bill? Well, may they don't in America, but here, people with calvinistic beliefs certainly do use the term "born again." Why should they not? It is a biblical one.

 

[David Lamb]

Anyway, I'm a Christian, not a Paulist.

Nor, I imagine, are you a "Moses-ist", a "Davidist", an "Isaiah-ist", a "Matthew-ist", or an "Any-Other-Human-Author-of-a-Book-of-the-Bible-ist". Surely you are not saying that you don't believe those parts of the New Testament written by Paul?

Can you construct your Gospel from the Gospels, James, and John?

Sorry, I am probably being more dense than usual :laugh:, but why should anyone want to "construct" a gospel? And why should they do so based on only part of the bible?

Anyway, Paul probably didn't write the Pastorals and Hebrews.

Well, 1 Timothy begins:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

Likewise, 2 Timothy:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

And Titus 1.1 & 4:

1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
​

I would agree that we are not told who wrote Hebrews.

Galatians is poor writing and I don't know how anyone can develop doctrine from it. Paul's writing is like hearing one half of a telephone conversation. It doesn't make without knowing the other half of the conversation.

I hope I have misunderstood you, and that you are not really saying what it appears to me you are saying: "I (Bill Wald) believe that I have the ability and the right to judge what God has put in His Word, and I further believe that at least one of the 66 books, Galatians, cannot be understood by Christians today." Please forgive me if I have misunderstood you - if that is the case perhaps you could tell me what you did mean. Thanks.

 

[12strings]

Don't they, Bill? Well, may they don't in America, but here, people with calvinistic beliefs certainly do use the term "born again." Why should they not? It is a biblical one.

Yes, I'm not sure what billwald is getting at here...I'm an american Cal (mostly) and definitely use the term "born again."

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN! (In case you weren't born in the 1500's, "ye" means "YOU"!):laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Or "Born Anew" :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Taken from George Whitefields Sermon, "Method of Grace"

My dear friends, what is there in our performances to recommend us unto God? Our persons are in an unjustified state by nature, we deserve to be damned ten thousand times over; and what must our performances be? We can do no good thing by nature: “They that are in the flesh cannot please God.” You may do many things materially good, but you cannot do a thing formally and rightly good; because nature cannot act above itself. It is impossible that a man who is unconverted can act for the glory of God; he cannot do anything in faith, and “whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” After we are renewed, yet we are renewed but in part, indwelling sin continues in us, there is a mixture of corruption in every one of our duties; so that after we are converted, were Jesus Christ only to accept us according to our works, our works would damn us, for we cannot pt up a prayer but it is far from that perfection which the moral law requireth. I do not know what you may think, but I can say that I cannot pray but I sin — I cannot preach to you or any others but I sin — I can do nothing without sin; and, as one expresseth it, my repentance wants to be repented of, and my tears to be washed in the precious blood of my dear Redeemer. Our best duties are as so many splendid sins. Before you can speak peace in your heart, you must not only be made sick of your original and actual sin, but you must be made sick of your righteousness, of all your duties and performances. There must be a deep conviction before you can be brought out of your self-righteousness; it is the last idol taken out of our heart. The pride of our heart will not let us submit to the righteousness of Jesus Christ. But if you never felt that you had o righteousness of your own, if you never felt the deficiency of your own righteousness, you cannot come to Jesus Christ.

 

[Moriah]

Iconoclast

You said: Hello Moriah...
It happens at the same time

My reply: No, it never happens, not once in the Bible. The Bible says we believe, THEN we receive the Holy Spirit.

You said: Yes,,,,because of the fall men are unable to come to God ...unless God draws them to faith..Jn 6:37-44.

My reply: You need to go just one more scripture down, to John 6:45, here we are told that God draws them because they recognize what Jesus says as the word of God. John 6:45 Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
So now that you know the truth, will you continue to repeat the falseness?

You said: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

My reply: The PLAN was predestined, for us to have access to salvation through faith.

You said: Yes..the scripture teaches this.
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

My reply: We HAVE to believe first, we have to believe. Nowhere does this teach that we cannot believe after learning of Jesus, NOWHERE. The scriptures just do not say that. Calvinism gives assumptions.

You said: Sure he did:
4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My reply: NOWHERE does this passage so we cannot believe in God after learning of Jesus. The plan is predestined for those who would believe in Jesus. God elects us when we believe and obey.God knows the heart, and God knows what we all would believe, even before we were born. It is not as Calvinists say, the Word of God SAYS the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey. See Acts 5:32. The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead---whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
"...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
See also what JESUS says, John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Again, NOWHERE in the scriptures does it say God causes us to believe first, nowhere.

Question one: Calvinists believe that no one can accept God on their own. Which scripture or scriptures say that?

You said: Psalm 14:1-3..quoted by Paul in Romans 3
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

My reply: HOW CAN THEY NOT BE ABLE TO BELIEVE IN GOD IF THEY HAVE “GONE ASIDE”? These scriptures are about God’s chosen, the Jews, turning away from God. These Jews were God’s chosen, yet they were just like everyone else. That is what those scriptures are about, not that we cannot believe in God on our own after learning of Jesus. Paul is quoting Psalm14:1-3; 53:1-3; and Ecclesiastes 7:20. Ecclesiastes SAYS there is not a RIGHTEOUS man who does what is right and NEVER SINS. Ecclesiastes tells us that there ARE RIGHTEOUS men but none who NEVER sin. Paul is explaining that the Jews were sinners just like the Gentiles. Nowhere in these passages or scriptures anywhere does it say none can believe on their own. In this same Ecclesiastes 7, Solomon tells us about wise men, righteous men, and about a man who pleases God. Solomon also tells us that he found one upright man among a thousand. The Bible tells us that there are people who want to do right, but we cannot stop sinning without Jesus saving us and giving us the Holy Spirit.

Explain why it does not say that anywhere in the Bible.
You said: I cannot explain what you say...because it says it in several places in the bible...like this-
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

My reply: The Old Testament believers in God were God’s people. Not all Old Testament Jews were true believers. The people who believed in God, God gave them to Jesus. God’s people who believed in Him, they now had to go through Jesus in faith to continue with God, this faith in Jesus made them perfect. They are the people who God enabled to come to Jesus during Jesus’ ministry on earth. The Jews who did not believe in God, God hardened them so they were not able to come to Jesus. The people who are drawn to Jesus, they are drawn because they are all ready believers in God the Father. The people who believe in God, they recognize what Jesus says as God’s word, and in this, they are drawn. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. John 6:44, 45 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
The people were already God’s, now they would become Jesus’ people. Those who did not believe in God, they were hardened. God did not allow them to come to Jesus. Only a remnant, the lost sheep of Israel would come to Jesus (Matthew 10:6; 15:24). John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. See also, John 3:37, 39; 6:65; 10:26, 29; 15:21-24; 16:3; 17:2, 9, 24; Romans 11:4, 5, 7; Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40. John 8:19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?” "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

Continued...

 

[Moriah]

Continued.

Question 2: Why did Paul not say something like 'I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by God giving you His Spirit so that you can believe?’

You said: Because that is not what he was talking about...he is speaking of a works gospel/ or a grace gospel

My reply: There is no way what you say is a legitimate answer, no way. If we ALL are saved by God giving us His Spirit first, then it would NOT matter if we did works or not! Explain that one. A new question for Calvinists, what does it matter if we are told the distinction between faith and works if we are all saved only by not what we do or think, but rather with unwilling minds we are saved ANYWAY, such as Calvinists teach!

Question 3: In Romans 10:17, why does Paul not say something different like, 'Consequently, faith comes from the Holy Spirit enabling you to believe, and therefore allowing you to accept the message'?

You said: because he has already explained it earlier in the book,and in his other letters

My reply: No way would Paul not expound on such an important fact, if it were true.

Question 4: Why did Paul not say '...which is at work in you who were enabled to believe'? I mean, Paul is taking time to explain carefully to the Thessalonians, so why not explain more adequately

You said: because he has already explained it earlier in the book,and in his other letters

My reply: This is not an acceptable answer. Please explain how Paul can CONTINUOUSLY leave out the way in which we are saved.

Question five: Why in Hebrews 4:2 did Paul not say something like, 'For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard were not enabled to have faith to believe it'?

You said: We do not know for sure that Paul wrote Hebrews.The Holy Spirit who moved upon the writers of scripture does not have to repeat himself over and over,having already made it clear.....men are fully responsible to believe,they cannot unless God allows them to.

My reply: What do you mean Paul does not have to repeat himself over and over? Paul never says what Calvinists say, not even once.

You said: men are never saved ...because of faith...they are saved BY, OR THROUGH Faith.....never because of. Jesus is the author and finisher of faith
saving faith is the gift of God.

My reply: Your reasoning is denial, which is no defense. I would not know what faith was unless Jesus came; HOWEVER, Jesus DID COME. Jesus does not make us believe, as Calvinists claim. We do NOT get the Holy Spirit when we HATE God, as Calvinists claim. We receive the Holy Spirit when we LOVE God.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
How do you ever go against such a beautiful and powerful scripture such as that?

You said: No... we understand exactly what Paul is saying

My reply: Paul did not say it, and you can see for yourself in that scripture that Paul did not say it. You have to look to other scriptures that are hard to understand. 2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

You said: 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

My reply: God knows what is in our hearts before we are even born. God knew that Esau would give up his inheritance for a bowl of soup! God calls many times in the Bible, yet there are those who resist God’s calling! But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." Romans 10:21. God held his hands out. The people were obstinate to God holding his hands out. Isaiah 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--
Does it make sense that God would hold out His hands to people if He made it impossible for them to come to Him? Calvinism is insanity. Pagans CHOOSE to do that in which they do. 1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.
God held out His hands to disobedient and obstinate people. They rejected God. It is their sin, their sin of rejecting God. They rejected God on their own and will be judged and punished for that. When God judges them and punishes them, it will be the sin of rejecting God. If God made them without the capability to believe, then they would be innocent.

You said: 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

My reply: This is about the Jews who had the law of WORKS. The Jews WORKED, yet God showed MERCY to the GENTILES, the Gentiles who did NOT do the works of the law, because God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy! Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Calvinists confuse all the scriptures that are about the Jews with the law of works and how the Gentiles were grafted in. Give up the false doctrine of Calvinism, which is based on man’s assumptions. Believe on ONLY what the Word of God does say.

 

[Moriah]

Taken from George Whitefields Sermon, "Method of Grace"

My dear friends, what is there in our performances to recommend us unto God? Our persons are in an unjustified state by nature, we deserve to be damned ten thousand times over; and what must our performances be? We can do no good thing by nature: “They that are in the flesh cannot please God.” You may do many things materially good, but you cannot do a thing formally and rightly good; because nature cannot act above itself. It is impossible that a man who is unconverted can act for the glory of God; he cannot do anything in faith, and “whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” After we are renewed, yet we are renewed but in part, indwelling sin continues in us, there is a mixture of corruption in every one of our duties; so that after we are converted, were Jesus Christ only to accept us according to our works, our works would damn us, for we cannot pt up a prayer but it is far from that perfection which the moral law requireth. I do not know what you may think, but I can say that I cannot pray but I sin — I cannot preach to you or any others but I sin — I can do nothing without sin; and, as one expresseth it, my repentance wants to be repented of, and my tears to be washed in the precious blood of my dear Redeemer. Our best duties are as so many splendid sins. Before you can speak peace in your heart, you must not only be made sick of your original and actual sin, but you must be made sick of your righteousness, of all your duties and performances. There must be a deep conviction before you can be brought out of your self-righteousness; it is the last idol taken out of our heart. The pride of our heart will not let us submit to the righteousness of Jesus Christ. But if you never felt that you had o righteousness of your own, if you never felt the deficiency of your own righteousness, you cannot come to Jesus Christ.

You do not sound like a saved person. I am NOT saying Jesus has not saved you, just that you do not sound saved. You sound like a person BEFORE Jesus saved them. You definitely sound like a defeatist when it comes to sin. Read about life through the Spirit, Chapter 8 of Romans. Does it sound anything like what you say here? No, I say it does not.

Romans 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

 

[Moriah]

Anyway, I'm a Christian, not a Paulist.

Can you construct your Gospel from the Gospels, James, and John?

Anyway, Paul probably didn't write the Pastorals and Hebrews.

>Read Galatians 3:2. In Galatians 3:2 we read that Paul asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

How would they know? It is a goofy question. Many Calvinists and other Christians can't remember a time when they didn't "believe in" Jesus. How would they be able to answer the question?

Galatians is poor writing and I don't know how anyone can develop doctrine from it. Paul's writing is like hearing one half of a telephone conversation. It doesn't make without knowing the other half of the conversation.

No, you are not a Paulist. You are a Calvinist. John Calvin, not even a man who laid the foundation, as Paul did, with the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus Christ Himself as Chief Cornerstone. Paul says not to say we follow men, and he is the man whom the Holy Spirit gave the words to speak during the laying of the foundation. The way you speak of Paul is as if he were an enemy.

 

[preacher4truth]

You do not sound like a saved person. I am NOT saying Jesus has not saved you, just that you do not sound saved. You sound like a person BEFORE Jesus saved them. You definitely sound like a defeatist when it comes to sin. Read about life through the Spirit, Chapter 8 of Romans. Does it sound anything like what you say here? No, I say it does not.

Romans 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Really? Wow. Way to call someones salvation into question, and pretend you're not.

 

[Moriah]

Really? Wow. Way to call someones salvation into question, and pretend you're not.

I even SAID that I was not saying Jesus had not saved him yet. You believe in man’s assumptions, Calvin’s, now your own. Please do not put words in my mouth, things that I did not say. Others here go around calling people heretics go speak to them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

P4T: Really? Wow. Way to call someones salvation into question, and pretend you're not.

HP: Try reading what he wrote. Besides, why get so uptight now? Where have you been with the remarks of Biblicist made with NO qualification whatsoever? What selective and biased input you inject.