Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You almost sound to me like Pelagius arguing against Augustines view of grace.:smilewinkgrin:
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The World God so Loved !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
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savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
If you mean by that, God Loved every individual in the whole world without exception, thats false !
There is no scripture that says that, if it is prove it with scripture. God did not Love Esau.
Rom 9:13
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
God is very specific about His distinguishing Love between the Twins
Mal 1:2
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
If you mean by that, God Loved every individual in the whole world without exception, thats false !
There is no scripture that says that, if it is prove it with scripture. God did not Love Esau.
Rom 9:13
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
God is very specific about His distinguishing Love between the Twins
Mal 1:2
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
There is no one in this world that God did not love; that God did not die for. God is not cruel; is not a monster that you portray him to be. He did not create anyone, even Esau for the purpose of going to hell.
He loved him with an everlasting love, as he loves all men.
God is not willing that any man should perish but that all should come to repentance.
To quote Scripture that is in the context of election out of that very context (just to prove your ideological point) is not doing justice to the Word of God. That is not sound hermeneutics.
First understand that the human mind can never comprehend an infinite God. God therefore uses illustrative language to help us understand him and his actions. He does not hate, but uses the word "hate" to help us understand. It is called an anthropormorphism--a human trait applied to an incomprehensible God. It is not that he hated Esau in the womb; he didn't. He would hate the actions and decisions that he would make for he knew ahead of time what they already were.
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
So you say, but it is mighty funny you cannot produce one scripture that says that. Rom 9:13
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
So you say, but it is mighty funny you cannot produce one scripture that says that. Rom 9:13
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
You can't produce a Scripture to the contrary but to quote out of context as above, which I have explained to you. I have given you plenty of Scripture, and yet you don't answer.
You no doubt can quote John 3:16.
That is good enough. He loved the whole world. Case closed.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Romans 9:13 is speaking of nations, not individuals.
God knew Esau would trade his inheritance for a bowl of soup. Esau is the first-born and he represents the Jews. Jacob is the second born and represents the Gentiles. The Jews gave up their inheritance when they rejected the Messiah.
savedbymercy
New Member
Do you deny that Esau was an Individual ?
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
What are you talking about, Rom 9:13 is contrary to your teaching, that is the only one I need.
You still need to provide a scripture, just one, that states that God Loved everyone in the world without exception, Jn 3:16 does not say that, no where close !
What are you talking about, Rom 9:13 is contrary to your teaching, that is the only one I need.
You still need to provide a scripture, just one, that states that God Loved everyone in the world without exception, Jn 3:16 does not say that, no where close !
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
John 3:16 For God so loved the world.....
Isn't it good that the Scripture stands fast against all the naysayers? :godisgood:....and so is His Word!
Isn't it good that the Scripture stands fast against all the naysayers? :godisgood:....and so is His Word!
savedbymercy
New Member
He did Love the World. However please show us where scripture states that God Loved everyone in the world without exception..
We already know He did not Love Esau Rom 9:13
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
In fact, in addition, since the Individual Esau represents a Nation also, God hated many more people, individuals that comprised that nation..
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Isn't that a comparison statement in accordance with the cultural frame it was written in? Didn't God Bless Essau and give him his own territory? God just didn't choose him for salvation history purposes. Do you think God actually hated Essau and didn't love him at all? Of course not. So according to you God goes around hating people. You should preach that while evangelizing. "God only loves a few of you hear who will automatically choose God because he loves you. The rest of you are going to hell because God really doesn't love you he actually hates you and only puts up with you becuase you serve his purposes to help the special elect few people get a better idea of why they can't help themselves from choosing God"
Last edited by a moderator:
savedbymercy
New Member
think
Yes, but He still hated him. God's Love to an idividual is not measured by material blessings !
Yes, but He still hated him. God's Love to an idividual is not measured by material blessings !
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
So to be a truthful evangelist God blesses those he hates and he hates most of the world. So when you preach maybe it should sound like this:
"Most of you here tonight God hates. He wants and will send you into hell. The very few here tonight that God actually cares about will of with out my help will believe upon Jesus and go to heaven. I hope the one's God hate don't feel some sort of way about it. "
savedbymercy
New Member
You see how I preach, I state the Truth of scripture !
savedbymercy
New Member
The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !
Romans 9:13
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?
And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. Ps 5:5
5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Yes, these and those in Ps 5:5 are the very same !
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?
And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. Ps 5:5
5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Yes, these and those in Ps 5:5 are the very same !
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I know! I want you to really preach it! Because honestly you can't have everyone believing that God loves them and became incarnate for them. He hates most people! The narrow path and all that. In fact honest parents should tell their children at night that God may or may not care about them. And since God hates most people in the world the chances are that God hates them. However, there is a smaller percentage chance that God actually loves them if they are elect. I mean God ordains that most people he created in his image are created for the fire of hell and damnation. Thank God there are a few elect that God ordain would go to heaven. Therefore we should be more like God. We should hate more men than love them. We shouldn't feed the poor and hungry but only the elect.
Preach it!!!!!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
It is obvious that Thinkingstuff took the time to consult wisdom before he started preaching. :thumbs:
It should seem evident to SBM that the rich young ruler of Mat.19 and Mark 10, who departed from Jesus sorrowful having chosen his riches over Christ, was not one of the elect. Therefore God hated him. Yet the text says:
And Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, "This do. Go, sell what thou hast, give to the poor, take up thy cross, and come and follow me."
Jesus loved the non-elect; those that refused Him.
He wept over the city of Jerusalem expressing his deep love for the people of that city, though they were not saved.
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
No it is not obvious he was not one of the elect. I believe he was since Jesus Loved him.
I don't think you can say he was not Justified. Christ it appears caused him to see his lost state and his deceived state, observe how he acted when he left Christ's presence Matt 19:22
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mk 10:22
22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
Because Mk recorded that Jesus Loved him, I would say that he was Justified by Christ's obedience, but did not know it !
The other times the scripture records that Jesus Loved individuals, from all indications they were believers.
Jn 11:5
Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
Jn 13:1
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
I believe the ruler was one of His own, since He Loved him !
Jn 13:23
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
I believe I will see the young man in Glory...
No it is not obvious he was not one of the elect. I believe he was since Jesus Loved him.
I don't think you can say he was not Justified. Christ it appears caused him to see his lost state and his deceived state, observe how he acted when he left Christ's presence Matt 19:22
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mk 10:22
22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
Because Mk recorded that Jesus Loved him, I would say that he was Justified by Christ's obedience, but did not know it !
The other times the scripture records that Jesus Loved individuals, from all indications they were believers.
Jn 11:5
Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
Jn 13:1
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
I believe the ruler was one of His own, since He Loved him !
Jn 13:23
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
I believe I will see the young man in Glory...