Don't have a clue what you are talking about.
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By One Man's Disobedience Many Were Made Sinners
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Like I said you simply do not understand the use of metaphors. Psalm 53 could not apply the metaphor of a poisonous serpent to children if there were no such thing as literal poisonous serpents in reality! The metaphor must have a literal basis in reality in order to be used or applied metaphorically. Thus, in reality children are transgressors from their mother's womb and that is why they can be applied metaphorically to Israel.
Paul uses the same metaphor of a serpent to the human nature in Romans 3:13
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Paul could not use "the poison of asps" as a metaphor unless it had a literal existence in reality. Likewise, when Isaiah applies the metaphor "transgressor from the womb" it has to have a literal existence in reality or else it could not be used as a metaphor.
This text says nothing about birth. I can just as easily interpret this text to refer to God's original prefallen design by creation in the Garden as opposed to man's own designs due to post-fallen nature.
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I understand a metaphor. We say, "his heart burned like fire", that is a metaphor, but it doesn't mean your heart is literally on fire.
But that is beside the point, neither Psa 58:3 or Isa 48:8 is speaking of all men.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
David is not speaking of all newborn babies, he is speaking of exceedingly wicked persons. He contrasts these wicked persons with the righteous in verses 10 and 11.
Psa 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Likewise, Isa 48:8 is not speaking of newborn babies, but the house of Israel and the house of Judah. And the transgression from the womb spoken of is when Israel sinned in the wilderness. I quoted you several commentaries that all said that.
So, you are pulling scripture out of context and abusing it, even after you have been corrected.
It is speaking of all men, not Adam only.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
If you really knew the scriptures, you would know God made our spirits and our souls.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Num 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
You did not inherit your soul or spirit from your parents, only your body. Your soul and spirit came from God. You are in effect accusing God of creating evil when you say we are born evil.
Man is STILL made in the image of God. Even after Adam the scriptures say this.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
This was said long after Adam.
Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
When you say men are born evil, you are in fact doing what James 3:9 warns against, you are saying evil against men who are made in the similitude of God.
Man is not born evil, he is born upright, but all men soon go astray in sin and become evil.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Men "go out" of the way. To go out of the way, you must have been "in the way" originally. To "become unprofitable", you must have been profitable at one point.
If you would not allow others to think for you, and look at the actual words of scripture, you would see they show man is created upright, but then all men go astray in sin.
1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
This verse says we were all as sheep going astray from our Shepherd Jesus Christ, but are now "returned" to him. You cannot go "astray" unless you first belonged to the flock, and you cannot be "returned" to someplace you have never been.
You have been shown.
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No, that is not a metaphor! That is a simile! When you use the terms "like" or "as" it is a simile not a metaphor! Metaphors are more direct where one thing is said to be another thing.
You simply do not know what a metphor is or how it is used.
So you are taking the rediculous and absurd position that only SOME infants are born this way and others are not??????
As I said, I don't dispute the application. However, you are completley ignorant of the use of metaphors. The use of the metaphor DEMANDS it is a reality or else it could not be applied to Israel.
Again, that is your presumption without contextual evidence. When God made Adam he made his spiritual and soul by breathing the "spirits" (plural) of life in his nostrils. However, it is not until the fall that man sought out other designs than God's design.
You cannot tell the difference between simile's and metaphor's and you don't understand that a metaphor requires a LITERAL REALITY or else it cannot be used metaphorically.
Go back and study and then come back and repent of your errors.
Then neither do the scholars who listed this as a metaphor.
http://www.sil.org/LinguaLinks/lexicon/MetaphorsInEnglish/WhatIsALoveAsFireMetaphor.htm
You are so smart, maybe you should correct them.
I am taking the position that David was speaking of "the wicked" and not all men, and that he was intentionally using exaggeration called hyperbole. It is not to be taken literally. David was not discussing the subject of Original Sin.
No, metaphors do not have to have a literal meaning. Your heart does not literally burn like fire.
No, the scriptures say he is the Father of the spirits (plural) of ALL flesh (plural). The scriptures say our spirit will return to God who gave it. If you are correct, since Adam God has given every man an evil spirit. I don't think God would appreciate that.
The definition of metaphor is;
Even the dictionary shows you are in error. Do you see it says "to which it is not LITERALLY applicable"? Look that up, I got that directly from the dictionary.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/metaphor
Maybe it is you that should do a little study.
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That is not a metaphor. It is a simile. And there is a big difference. A metaphor is very figurative. Jesus said "I am the door." But he is not a door. We know that. It is a metaphor, a picture. Isaiah said "All we like sheep have gone astray." That is a simile. It compares us to sheep. There are comparisons between us and sheep. We have similar characteristics: followers, dumb and stupid, born with sinful natures
prone to wander, etc. He didn't say we are sheep; but we are like sheep. The former is a metaphor, the latter a simile. That makes no difference. We are not born into God's family when we enter this earth. We must be born again. There is no such thing as a person being born righteous. The birth of the righteous is on the same plane as the birth of the wicked. What was the difference between the birth of Jacob and Esau apart from God's foreknowledge.
--How can you deny "as soon as they are born," and "estranged from the womb," and say they are not speaking of babies?? We are not illiterate.
Unlike verse 3 (a simile), this is a metaphor. Quite a difference isn't there. It does you well to know your figures of speech.
The context is Judah. We recognize that. But language still has meaning. The Jewish people were estranged from the womb. What applies to them applies to all.
Not at all. I can pull several commentaries off the shelf and show you how wrong you are. I have already done that to some extent but you have ignored me.
You look at the context:
(Isa 48:8) Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
--God shows them their sinfulness. They were transgressors from the womb; they have been rebellious, seemingly all of their lives. This is in contrast to God. This is the emphasis of this entire passage.
(Isa 48:12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
(Isa 48:13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
From Israel's birth, and our birth, we are are evil. From eternity God is good. He is eternal: the alpha and the omega. He is the Creator. There is nothing evil in him. There is always evil in us. Read the entire chapter and see the contrast. BTW, Israel corporately is simply a great assembly of individuals. As he spoke to them corporately he was still speaking to them individually. The corporate Israel could not act unless the individuals acted, unless their individual hearts were changed.
Can you prove that. All men were born. God "made" or created only Adam and Eve, and they were the only ones that were created in righteousness (or upright).
Your conclusion is that Hitler, Stalin, etc. are in heaven. There is no hell.
You fail to study this book and continue to take Scripture out of context.
Two verses quoted out of their context. You have no idea what they are teaching because their context is not provided. This is just silly.
And so? It is also past tense. The key word is "made." So he was "made," but is not any longer. Study Gen.5:3. The Bible does not contradict itself.
It doesn't say image and likeness. It says "similitude." That is another figure of speech. It means there is a likeness. There is a difference still that is greater than the animals. But we are still made after the image of Adam.
But that is not all that it says is it?
There is none good, no not one.
There is none righteous.
These are absolute statements. And they are repeated over and over again. I "have gone out of my way" to show you this. And I "have been in the way" all the time doing so.
All we like sheep have gone astray. Past tense. This includes all. We have already gone astray. We have been like that since we were born. We turned "everyone" to his own ways. And the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Praise the Lord that includes the iniquity of infants as well, else there would be no salvation for them.
Hardly. I think you have.
Not the best source to use.
(Psa 58:3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
--One correction on my part.
There is neither simile nor metaphor in this verse.
It is a straight forward literal statement with nothing in it to indicate any figurative language at all. The words "as" in this case are prepositions, but they do not indicate a simile. There is no metaphor. It is simply a literal statement without any figure of speech.
Verse four gives an example of a simile:
(Psa 58:4) Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
--One correction on my part.
There is neither simile nor metaphor in this verse.
It is a straight forward literal statement with nothing in it to indicate any figurative language at all. The words "as" in this case are prepositions, but they do not indicate a simile. There is no metaphor. It is simply a literal statement without any figure of speech.
Verse four gives an example of a simile:
(Psa 58:4) Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
I am not going to continue to argue with you guys, you refuse to see. Jesus himself compared lost sinners to a sheep that was lost.
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Jesus compared lost sinners to a shepherd who had 100 sheep. One went "astray" and was lost. He searched for it until he found it. This is not speaking of a backsliden Christian, it is speaking of a SINNER.
Jesus showed the same with the prodigal son.
Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
You will refuse to see what Jesus clearly taught, but he compared a sinner to a father that had two sons. One left home and involved himself in sin. He was joined to a citizen of that far country representing Satan. This is when the young man spiritually died, became lost and a child of the devil and wrath.
But the young man came to himself and repented. He turned toward home, this is repentance. His father saw him a long way off, this is foreknowledge. When the boy arrived he confessed his sin, and his father forgave him. He put a clean robe on him representing the righteousness that is imputed to us. He put a ring on his finger, a seal of his sonship. He put new shoes on him representing our new walk as Christians.
But importantly, twice Jesus said the young man was alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive AGAIN unless you were alive once. If we are born dead in sin, then we could never be alive AGAIN, but only once.
You will refuse to see this, but this is what the scriptures show over and over again. But because you have bought Augustine's false doctrine you are blinded to it.
1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
The prodigal son was like a sheep who ran away from the flock, he went astray and became lost. But when he returned home he was alive AGAIN.
It is plain as day.
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You know better than that Winman.
Jesus also said: "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me."
They are believers. And believing sheep often go astray. Just read the First Epistle to the Corinthians. When one of them went astray he went after it and brought it back into the fellowship.
Yes there is a comparison. But once a son, always a son. The father is as God, and the son, his child. I thought you believed in OSAS. Like the lost sheep here was a son that went astray. He came "to his senses." He returned to "his father." He was restored to fellowship.
Every Christian needs repentance in his life.
His father was looking with anticipation, as any father would. There is no foreknowledge there. Don't be the Augustinian allegorist.
When the boy returned he asked for forgiveness, was forgiven, and restored to fellowship with the father. You read too much into this just like Origen, Augustine, et.al.
He gave him new clothes because his were tattered and torn. He stunk! He had been feeding the pigs and eating what they had been eating.
Dead means separated. He had been separated from his father.
He was now alive, just like Joseph when his father found him again in Egypt. He also exclaimed that Joseph was alive thought Joseph really had never died. He had just been separated from each other. The father never knew what had befallen his son. For all we know he was presumed dead.
Speak about Augustine! You are the one that is allegorizing Scripture like he did.
He went astray and became lost. You believe one can lose their salvation?
I didn't know that.
You purposely misrepresent me and you know it. It is you that would have to believe a believer can lose his salvation if the prodigal son is a backsliden Christian. You are stuck. The scriptures never call a believer dead.
The scriptures do not teach we are born children of wrath, children of the devil. The scriptures show that infants belong to God and are his children.
Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
The issue is not whether all men sin, it is when. We are not born dead in sin, but all men will sin and die spiritually.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: But we are often told on this list that believers cannot follow God for they cannot help but sin. To sin is not to follow God. Either you have the wrong notion of a believer or you have a wrong notion of what it means to follow God, or both. One cannot be said to be following God while sinning. The two are opposites of one another.
HP: What Corinthians did NOT say is that if they fail to come back in repentance they are still in the fold.
A sheep cannot be and not be at the same time in the same sense. If believers follow God, their position as believers must change, or should I say on the path where they will not in time be considered believers, when they are committing sin and are not following God. Again, if believers follow God, it must be true that those not following God are either not believers or soon will not be, IF the path they are on, in a direction away from God, does not change.
The question everyone should ask themselves is, if I follow the path I am currently on in disobedience, will I end up in the opposite direction of obedience apart from turning in sincere repentance?
" Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
Notice carefully who is being addressed. It is speaking to believers. They have two paths to follow. One leads to corruption and final destruction and the other consisting of obedience and everlasting life. Be not deceived.
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You can't tell the difference between a metaphor and a simile and then you attempt to use a parable to establish doctrine! How much more messed up can you get?????
You are simply wrong on all accounts and you are wrong because you are mishandling Biblical language.
Here is one one of the greatest authorities on figures of speech defined the difference between a metaphor and a simile:
"Hence, while the Simile gentle states that one is like or resembles another, the Metaphor boldly and warmly declares that one thing IS the other.
While the Simile says, "All flesh is AS grass" (1 Pet. 1.24), the Metaphor carries the figure across at once, and says "All flesh IS grass." (Isa. 40:6). This is the distinction between the two." - E. W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible. (Baker Book House, Grand Rapids MI) p. 735
Israel could not be described as ".....from that time that thine ear was not opened:....and wast called a transgressor from the womb" if both descriptions were not literally true of infants in the womb. Both Job and Psalms support this metaphorically truth.
In the development process in the womb there is "that time that thine ear was not opened" and therefore it is also true that infants are transgressors "from the womb" or else there is no basis to make the metaphorical application to Israel in regard to the birth metaphor.
No one disputes your commentator's application of this metaphor to the national origin of Israel. But none of the commentators dispute the reality of the metaphor, they simply make its application to be the national origin of Israel.
First, you are dealing with a parable and you seem to have no more credible understanding of a parable any more than a metaphor or similie. Parables are not designed to be the basis for doctrine - supportive to clear and explicit precepts yes, but basis for doctrine - no!
Moreover, you don't even understand the contextual application of these three parables:
These three parables have a specific design and that design is evident if you place Luke 15 in its proper context. He is responding to lost religious leaders who perceive themselves as Abraham's children, and thus God's children and in in no need of repentance, no need of a Savior and thus no need of salvation but already saved (99 sheep, 9 coins, elder son).
In this parable the 99 sheep, the 9 coins and the elder son all represent these lost leaders how they perceive themselves - in no need of repentance, salvation or a need of a Savior. In each case the joy is not over those who are perceived to be safe but over that which repented rather than over that which did not.
In regard to our origin we are all the children of God but in regard to our spiritual condition we are of our father the Devil unto whom we were brought into bondage at the fall of Adam. Hence, we are born spiritually dead. The elder son who claimed never to have disobeyed a single solitary command of his father all of his days is representative of spiritual dead children of Satan who are transgressors from the womb of their mother (Isa. 48:8).
The younger son was born spiritually dead as much as the elder son who was still spiritually dead. However, the younger son was brought to a sound mind to see his condition whereas the elder son remained in his blindness seeing himself as SINLESS from birth throughout adulthood.
Even the adults in Israel were called "the children" of Israel. Again, you are simply perverting and twisting the language of scripture to fit your error.
The "when" is clearly and explicitly answered in Romans 5:12, 15 and 19. "By ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" is the when!
We were transgressors from the womb as Job and his friends clearly teach and for which God NEVER rebuke them for saying.
We were transgressors from the womb as David clearly and explicitly states and then uses metaphors to describe that sinful nature.
We were transgressors from the womb as Isaiah presents as a metaphor and a metaphor must have a literal basis or else it cannot be used metaphorically.
Your interpretation is easily refuted by the text. Read what the father says to the elder son.
Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Vs. 25, the son is the elder. He was a son before the prodigal son. He is out in the field working, serving his father.
Vs. 27, the servants (angels?) tell the eldest son "thy brother is come". Believers and non-believers are not brothers. The elder son is a believer.
Vs. 29, the scriptures call the father concerning the eldest son "his father". The eldest son is not lost, he is the son of the father.
Vs. 31, the father tells the elder son, "thou art EVER with me". This son was never dead and lost like the prodigal son. He also tells the elder son, "and all that I have is thine". Again, this is describing a saved person, not a lost person.
Vs. 32, The father tells the eldest son, "thy brother was dead". Again, believers and non-believers are not brothers, the eldest son is a believer, a saved person.
Now, you only have two ways to explain this parable. If the prodigal son is a believer, then this parable teaches that a believer can go out in sin and become lost and dead in sin again. I personally reject this view.
If the prodigal son was not a believer, then you have him originally as a son, but going out in sin and becoming lost, dead in sin. When he repents and returns, he is forgiven and becomes a son again. This fits scripture such as 1 Peter 2:25 that says we like sheep have all gone astray, but are now RETURNED to our Shepherd Jesus. I believe this view.
So, what would that make the eldest son? How could he EVER be with the father? I believe this would either be a child who died before the age of accountability, or it could be a person who believes before the age of accountability.
I do understand and agree that the Pharisees and scribes believed themselves righteous. Nevertheless, Jesus describes 99 sheep who were never lost, and he describes the eldest son who was never lost.
The only other alternative is to believe the prodigal son was a believer who went out in sin and became lost, and then repented and was made alive again. If this is true, then once-saved-always-saved is not true. But I believe the scriptures clearly teach once a person believes they pass from death to life and will not come into condemnation. I believe a person is sealed by the Spirit and cannot be lost.
Yes, this is a parable, but parables express truth. Jesus did not tell misleading stories.
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That is only your opinion which you cannot substantiate.
Let's look at Scripture. Take Adam.
"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam died. Adam continued to talk with God. He was a believer who sinned, but was still able to talk with God until God provided a sacrifice for him. At that point he became fully reconciled with God and his fellowship with God was restored. He was dead. He was separated from God, spiritually. He could still talk with God. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. He was God's creation, God's child, and died, and still talked with God. Death means separation, even with the believer.
I can't help you if you simply deny the Scriptures.
(Eph 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
--The Bible speaks with clarity. It is not a confusing message.
And what is your point here? To demonstrate the wickedness of the depravity of the human heart which we have inherited from birth. Yes these verses do that.
They sin because they are born with a sin nature. To deny this is:
1. To deny basic bible teaching.
2. To embrace the heresy of Pelagianism.
You are blind because you do not observe the a,b,c's of Biblical hermeneutics. Ask who these parables are being directed to:
Luke 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Sadly, the elder son represents people just like you. The religious lost who cannot see themselves as sinners by nature and thus by practice but see themselves as the elder son - born sinless and living above sin.
Jesus purposely presents the Scribes and Pharisees exactly as they perceive themselves - the 99 who NEVER went astray. The nine coins that NEVER were lost. The Elder Son that NEVER disobeyed any commandment.
Just like those he spoke this too, it goes right over your head as well. However, the SINNERS understood this and only SINNERS can understand this as Jesus did not come to save the righteous, nor does the whole need a Physician.
The lost sheep, lost coin and lost son are the "sinners" in Luke 15:2 while the 99 sheep, nine coins and Elder son are the "Pharisees and scribes" or all those who perceive themselves righteous and whole.
When you jerk things out of context and build doctrines on parables this is the kind of foolish rationale you are driven to! Do you believe you were a literal "coin" or a literal "sheep"????? The parables of the sheep and coins are just as applicable as the two sons. Tell me, what grounds do you have to LITERALIZE the "sons" and not the "coins" and "sheep"???
This kind of foolishness is the consequence of jerking things out of context. The proper applications for the sheep, coins and sons are found in verse 2. You can no more literalize the "coins" and "sheep" than the "sons" as they are EQUALLY by context parabolic symbols of either sinners or self-righteous hypocrits.
Of course not, because you are just like them - one and the same.
However, for the reader, notice that in verse 2 the Pharisees and Scribes did not consider themselves as "sinners" but rather used that term to describe those who RECEIVED Jesus while they REJECTED Christ. BTW that is exactly what all who hold your doctrine do in reality - reject Christ.
Luke 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 15:1 ¶ Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
You can't see the truth any more than the Pharisees and Scribes could.
They are, aren't they? "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord."
Perhaps you misunderstood what I said, or was trying to say.
Here is what I said:
"And believing sheep often go astray. Just read the First Epistle to the Corinthians."
Many of the Corinthians went astray. There isn't always signs of repentance in each case. They went astray in their abuse of spiritual gifts. They went astray in taking each other to court. They went astray simply because they were carnal and divisive. They went astray in abusing the Lord's Table, and the Lord judge them severely for it. As a consequence some were sick, some were weak. And God killed some of them (1Cor.11:30). No, there wasn't always repentance.
Is that what happened to the believers who were suing each other at court in Corinth? Perhaps one of them was the owner of a MacDonalds franchise, and the other was suing because the coffee was too hot.
hmmm. Are you sinless?
That is right believers have eternal life--OSAS. I am glad you agree with that.
Of course the context of the passage you quoted is "giving" as in giving to the Lord's work; you do know that, don't you?
I agree the death means separation and that an unregenerate person can hear God and believe. I am in complete agreement with you here.
But the father said the prodigal son was DEAD and is alive AGAIN, he was LOST but now found. This is describing a lost sinner. But he did not start out dead, he started out alive in his father's house, but left of his own volition, fell into sin, and was joined to a citizen of that far country.
It doesn't say we are born dead, children of wrath. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins that we WALKED in. You have to commit sin to be guilty of sin, Adam's sin is not imputed to you, sin is imputed to you because you WALKED in sin, you committed sin. There is not one word in this passage that says you were born dead in sins, or born a child of wrath. It attributes our spiritual death to having WALKED in sins. By the way, a newborn child cannot walk.
You just don't get it, you don't have to have a sin nature to sin. Satan was created perfect, yet he sinned. The fallen angels were "very good", yet they sinned. Adam and Eve were "very good" yet they sinned. You simply cannot shake Augustine's false doctrine, the scriptures clearly show you do not have to be born with a sin nature to sin. All you need to sin is a free will, and a lack of faith. If Adam and Eve would have believed God and not trusted the devil, they would not have sinned.
Again, FALSE. The scriptures themselves PROVE you do not have to have a sin nature to sin. You simply cannot grasp this.
And calling me a Pelagian is what folks do when they can't defend their views. I present scripture for all of my views. You simply can't understand my views because you have been conditioned by RCC doctrine (which is where Original Sin came from).
As I have showed several times, the scriptures show infants belong to God, he calls them "my children".
Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
If you understand who "my children" are in this verse, then you will understand who the elder son is in the parable of the prodigal son. The elder son NEVER sinned. Who could say such a thing? An infant who was killed before he could do wrong.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Jacob and Esau were quite alive when this was said, and Paul said they had done no evil. If a child is aborted at this stage, would they have any sin?
We are judged for what we do, not for being born flesh.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
I don't expect you to understand what I am talking about.
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