Romans 7:14-25

[The Biblicist]

Everything you falsely accuse me of, it is what you are guilty of doing. I do not think that you should be embarrassed; rather, you should humble yourself and repent for following a false religion.
There is no way you can give a scriptural, biblical answer to your false beliefs, because they are beliefs not stated in the Bible. No amount of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic that you can learn that will make one bit of difference to help you in your life and doctrine of error. No amount of English classes you take will help you. There is no seminary school either.

Calvinist beliefs are NOWHERE in the scriptures, it is not even implied. God simply and plainly gives us the truth, but some men prefer Calvinists ASSUMPTIONS. It is the work of Satan that you have been ensnared to do. You help cause confusion to those who are not as knowledgeable. I will continue to explain the scriptures and correct Calvinists and all those who teach falseness. For Satan takes away what is sown when anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. I love explaining God’s truth. I love correcting, refuting, rebuking and teaching the truth.

Pure hot air! No scripture. No evidence. No response to the Biblical evidence I gave. Just pure hot air!

I gave contextual reasons why Romans 7:14-25 does indeed refer to Paul as a saved person and yet you cannot make one substantive response to the Biblical defense!

 

[Moriah]

Pure hot air! No scripture. No evidence. No response to the Biblical evidence I gave. Just pure hot air!

I gave contextual reasons why Romans 7:14-25 does indeed refer to Paul as a saved person and yet you cannot make one substantive response to the Biblical defense!

Paul said he could not do the good he wanted to, only the evil he did not want to do. Does that sound like a saved man? Let us reason together. I gave you many scriptures showing how saved men live, and they do not live by only doing evil.
You cannot see the truth because you will not let go of your Calvinist beliefs.

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul said he could not do the good he wanted to, only the evil he did not want to do. Does that sound like a saved man? Let us reason together. I gave you many scriptures showing how saved men live, and they do not live by only doing evil.
You cannot see the truth because you will not let go of your Calvinist beliefs.

Calvinism has NOTHING to do with exposition of this context. It may help your pride to throw labels around but it does not help your interpretational skills.

First, you ignore that the evil he does is AGAINST HIS WILL - v. 18

Second, you ignore that he has pinpointed the source of doing evil to indwelling sin in "the flesh."

Third, you ignore that he continues to serve God in his mind (v. 25b) WITHOUT SIN because sin is the response of his flesh (v. 25c)

Fourth, you ignore that the CARNAL MIND is not comparable to Paul's mind in Romans 7:25 but instead is at enmity, a state of war against both God and the law of God but Paul with his mind SERVES the law of God and DELIGHTS in the law of God - Rom. 7:23,25.

These are insurmountable BIBLICAL PROOFS that completely repudiate your whole interpretative theory and I do not need to call upon Calvinism nor do I need to throw some label at you to show you are simply wrong.

 

[Moriah]

Calvinism has NOTHING to do with exposition of this context. It may help your pride to throw labels around but it does not help your interpretational skills.

First, you ignore that the evil he does is AGAINST HIS WILL - v. 18

Second, you ignore that he has pinpointed the source of doing evil to indwelling sin in "the flesh."

Third, you ignore that he continues to serve God in his mind (v. 25b) WITHOUT SIN because sin is the response of his flesh (v. 25c)

Fourth, you ignore that the CARNAL MIND is not comparable to Paul's mind in Romans 7:25 but instead is at enmity, a state of war against both God and the law of God but Paul with his mind SERVES the law of God and DELIGHTS in the law of God - Rom. 7:23,25.

These are insurmountable BIBLICAL PROOFS that completely repudiate your whole interpretative theory and I do not need to call upon Calvinism nor do I need to throw some label at you to show you are simply wrong.

Everything you say to try to defend your false belief about Paul speaking of himself AFTER Jesus saved him is useless, it is useless because Paul said he could not do the good that he wanted to, only the evil he did not want to. Deal with that fact, and stop trying to talk around it.

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul is explaining life without the Spirit, life following the law of the first covenant. Do you really believe Paul is calling himself a wretched man after Jesus saved him? No way had Paul spoke of himself in such a way after Jesus saved him. Paul asks, “Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?” Jesus saved Paul from his body of death! Through life through the Spirit, we are no longer slaves to sin! Read Romans chapter 8. It is the chapter about life through the Spirit, it starts right after Paul explains the condition he was in BEFORE Jesus saved him. In Romans chapter 8, you will learn about life for Paul and all true believers.

 

[The Biblicist]

Everything you say to try to defend your false belief about Paul speaking of himself AFTER Jesus saved him is useless, it is useless because Paul said he could not do the good that he wanted to, only the evil he did not want to. Deal with that fact, and stop trying to talk around it.

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul is explaining life without the Spirit, life following the law of the first covenant. Do you really believe Paul is calling himself a wretched man after Jesus saved him? No way had Paul spoke of himself in such a way after Jesus saved him. Paul asks, “Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?” Jesus saved Paul from his body of death! Through life through the Spirit, we are no longer slaves to sin! Read Romans chapter 8. It is the chapter about life through the Spirit, it starts right after Paul explains the condition he was in BEFORE Jesus saved him. In Romans chapter 8, you will learn about life for Paul and all true believers.

First, you have no response for the previous facts of the context I placed in your face - just more hot air.

Second, you ask what I believe about Paul claiming to be a wretched man! It makes no difference what you believe or what I believe! What matters is what Paul plainly and clearly states.

When a true child of God attempts to handle indwellng sin by his own will power it ends only in frustration and defeat as Paul explicitly states in verse 18 - read verse 18.

So yes, I believe whenever saved persons attempt to handle sin, indwelling sin by their own will power they will always be frustrated and defeated and that frustration is expressed by the words "O wretched man that I am."

However, Paul does not stop with that frustrating expression because he goes on to say "Who shall deliver me from this BODY OF DEATH."

Do you believe saved people have already been delivered from their LITERAL BODY or do they still live in it???? This is your problem with your interpretation. Saved people right now experience BOTH! Whenever they attempt to deal with sin in their own power, they will fail because they are dealing with sin indwelling the flesh, my members, "this body of death" and that is a wretched state of mind. However, when they refuse to deal wiht indwelling sin by their own will power but yeild to the power of the indwelling Spirit then Christ delivers them right then from "THIS BODY OF DEATH" as sin has its seat of power in "THIS BODY" and what they are experiencing when dealing with it by their own will power is "death" or SEPARATION from the power of God indwelling them.

You have no capacity to understand what I am saying because (1) you refuse to honestly and objectively interpret this text; (2) The Holy Spirit has not given you the capacity to interpret it or understand it. (3) You will only continue to spue unsupported hot air speculative personal opinions.

 

[Iconoclast]

First, you have no response for the previous facts of the context I placed in your face - just more hot air.

Second, you ask what I believe about Paul claiming to be a wretched man! It makes no difference what you believe or what I believe! What matters is what Paul plainly and clearly states.

When a true child of God attempts to handle indwellng sin by his own will power it ends only in frustration and defeat as Paul explicitly states in verse 18 - read verse 18.

So yes, I believe whenever saved persons attempt to handle sin, indwelling sin by their own will power they will always be frustrated and defeated and that frustration is expressed by the words "O wretched man that I am."

However, Paul does not stop with that frustrating expression because he goes on to say "Who shall deliver me from this BODY OF DEATH."

Do you believe saved people have already been delivered from their LITERAL BODY or do they still live in it???? This is your problem with your interpretation. Saved people right now experience BOTH! Whenever they attempt to deal with sin in their own power, they will fail because they are dealing with sin indwelling the flesh, my members, "this body of death" and that is a wretched state of mind. However, when they refuse to deal wiht indwelling sin by their own will power but yeild to the power of the indwelling Spirit then Christ delivers them right then from "THIS BODY OF DEATH" as sin has its seat of power in "THIS BODY" and what they are experiencing when dealing with it by their own will power is "death" or SEPARATION from the power of God indwelling them.

You have no capacity to understand what I am saying because (1) you refuse to honestly and objectively interpret this text; (2) The Holy Spirit has not given you the capacity to interpret it or understand it. (3) You will only continue to spue unsupported hot air speculative personal opinions.

EXACTLY CORRECT:applause::thumbsup::type::thumbsup:

 

[Moriah]

First, you have no response for the previous facts of the context I placed in your face - just more hot air.
Second, you ask what I believe about Paul claiming to be a wretched man! It makes no difference what you believe or what I believe! What matters is what Paul plainly and clearly states.

You are guilty of the very thing you falsely accuse me of, and that is hot air. I love God’s Truth, and that is only what I believe. For you to say it makes no difference what you or I believe, it is because you do not know the truth.

When a true child of God attempts to handle indwellng sin by his own will power it ends only in frustration and defeat as Paul explicitly states in verse 18 - read verse 18.

A true child of God does not attempt to handle sin by his own will power. You have not proven Paul was speaking of himself after Jesus saved him.

So yes, I believe whenever saved persons attempt to handle sin, indwelling sin by their own will power they will always be frustrated and defeated and that frustration is expressed by the words "O wretched man that I am."

How can a believer handle sin on their own when they are no longer on their own? You do not understand these scriptures because Calvinistic beliefs have interfered with these very scriptures you do not understand.

However, Paul does not stop with that frustrating expression because he goes on to say "Who shall deliver me from this BODY OF DEATH."
Do you believe saved people have already been delivered from their LITERAL BODY or do they still live in it???? This is your problem with your interpretation. Saved people right now experience BOTH!

Saved people should be encouraged to stop living by their flesh. Saved people crucified their body with Christ see Romans 6:6. Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Whenever they attempt to deal with sin in their own power, they will fail because they are dealing with sin indwelling the flesh, my members, "this body of death" and that is a wretched state of mind. However, when they refuse to deal wiht indwelling sin by their own will power but yeild to the power of the indwelling Spirit then Christ delivers them right then from "THIS BODY OF DEATH" as sin has its seat of power in "THIS BODY" and what they are experiencing when dealing with it by their own will power is "death" or SEPARATION from the power of God indwelling them.

You are trying to have it both ways, but you cannot escape the fact that Paul says he cannot do the good he wants to only the evil he does not want to do. Paul is not saying he does that IF he does not live by the Spirit that is what you are trying to add to those scriptures. Without adding or taking away from the scripture, without leaning to the left or to the right of the scripture, then you cannot possibly hold to the belief that Paul was saying IF he does not live through the Spirit. Paul is only speaking of following the law. Remember; do not add to the scripture.

You have no capacity to understand what I am saying because (1) you refuse to honestly and objectively interpret this text; (2) The Holy Spirit has not given you the capacity to interpret it or understand it. (3) You will only continue to spue unsupported hot air speculative personal opinions.

Jesus Christ himself saved me. God has poured out his love into my heart by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given me. I know and understand God, the LORD. In this, I can and do boast.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are guilty of the very thing you falsely accuse me of, and that is hot air. I love God’s Truth, and that is only what I believe. For you to say it makes no difference what you or I believe, it is because you do not know the truth.

Your type is impossible to deal with because you refuse to recognize the scriptures, deal with the scriptures or respond to the scriptures by any kind of exegetical or contextual rational - you simply ignore the Bible text and give your personal opinion as though God were speaking through you instead of through Paul. Hence, it is impossible to deal with people like you from a Biblical perspective as all you give is what you think. The Bible means nothing to your type.

A true child of God does not attempt to handle sin by his own will power. You have not proven Paul was speaking of himself after Jesus saved him.

If this is your true confession then you are not a saved person as no genuinely saved person could possibly say this. What you are claiming is that saved persons always "walk in the Spirit" or are always living under the direction of the Holy Spirit, or are always filled withe Spirit (all of these are synonomous with each other) and therefore never could sin because if a person always walked in the Spirit they could not sin unless you charge sin to the Holy Spirit.

How can a believer handle sin on their own when they are no longer on their own? You do not understand these scriptures because Calvinistic beliefs have interfered with these very scriptures you do not understand.

You sir are a coward! Instead of responsibly dealing with scriptures that are placed squarely before you, you cowardly ignore them and then excuse your cowardness by throwing the label of "calvinism" so that you will not have to confront and deal with the scriptures that don't support your personal philosophy. Think about it! I have not once called upon Calvin to support a single interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 but based my interpretation strictly upon the wording of Paul and you have not once ATTEMPTED much less been able to deal with the scripture text - not once! Instead you excuse yourself by cowardly throwing labels instead of dealing with the scriptural text. Why? Very simply - you cannot deal with the text because the text repudates your philosophical responses.

Saved people should be encouraged to stop living by their flesh.

Wait a minute!!! You have just previously stated that saved people do not deal with sin after the flesh so why should saved people be encouraged to stop what you claim they cannot do in the first place?????? Glaring contradiction!

However, such encouragement is exactly what we find in scripture (Gal. 5:25) which proves saved people can operate after the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit and thus experience the frustration expressed by Paul not ony in Romans 7:14-25 but also in Galatians 5:15-17.

Saved people crucified their body with Christ see Romans 6:6. Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

That is our POSITION by faith in regard to Justification which is displayed in water baptism (Rom. 6:1-6). But did you note the words that follow "that we SHOULD NOT serve sin" rather than "that we WILL NOT serve sin"!!! Do you know the difference? Our POSITION in Christ is obtained by faith and so is our WALK in Christ - "As you received the Lord Jesus Christ so walk ye in Him" - Col. 2:6

You are trying to have it both ways, but you cannot escape the fact that Paul says he cannot do the good he wants to only the evil he does not want to do.

You are ignoring the fact that Paul says that he wants to do good according to his "mind" (Rom. 7:25) and according to his mind he "delights in the law of God" as this is IMPOSSIBLE for the lost man's mind - Romans 7:8 - "For the carnal mind is ENMITY against God and is NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD and NEITHER INDEED CAN BE."

The child of God can choose to walk after the Spirit or after the flesh or don't you believe the child of God has a free will???????

Paul is not saying he does that IF he does not live by the Spirit that is what you are trying to add to those scriptures.

That is exactly what he IS saying in his conclusion in Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

All humans die! However, that is not what Paul is speaking about. He is speaking about "THIS BODY OF DEATH" in regard to indwelling sin that all Christians possess because they have not yet been glorified. When a child of God chooses to live after the flesh they suffer EXPERIENTIAL SEPARATION from the blessings of salvation - loss of joy, loss of fellowship, loss assurance, etc. That is one choice. The other choice is to "mortify the deeds of THE BODY, ye shall live" and he is talking about EXPERIENTIAL LIFE - or life more abundantly here and now. The choice is frustration and defeat or victory and blessings HERE AND NOW as a child of God.

Jesus Christ himself saved me. God has poured out his love into my heart by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given me. I know and understand God, the LORD. In this, I can and do boast.

That may be your profession but that may not be your reality. Your profession must stand the test of scripture and if you are claiming you can live above sin then the scripture says there is no truth in you (1 Jn. 1:8-10).

 

[Moriah]

Your type is impossible to deal with because you refuse to recognize the scriptures, deal with the scriptures or respond to the scriptures by any kind of exegetical or contextual rational - you simply ignore the Bible text and give your personal opinion as though God were speaking through you instead of through Paul. Hence, it is impossible to deal with people like you from a Biblical perspective as all you give is what you think. The Bible means nothing to your type.

You need to stop with the personal attacks, with the lying personal attacks. It is one thing to tell a person they are in falseness, but it is another thing to make nothing but post after post that they do not deal with scriptures or respond to the scriptures, or that they do not know how to do exegetical or contextual rational, and on and on. Stop making your arguments about false personal attacks.

If this is your true confession then you are not a saved person as no genuinely saved person could possibly say this. What you are claiming is that saved persons always "walk in the Spirit" or are always living under the direction of the Holy Spirit, or are always filled withe Spirit (all of these are synonomous with each other) and therefore never could sin because if a person always walked in the Spirit they could not sin unless you charge sin to the Holy Spirit.

You see here, you should be reprimanded for the way you go on and on about my salvation. Leave your ignorant comments to yourself, and stop telling me what I am claiming. However, you do not adhere to God’s Word, so why in the world would you adhere to mine. Nevertheless, please stop saying things that I do not say.

You sir are a coward! Instead of responsibly dealing with scriptures that are placed squarely before you, you cowardly ignore them and then excuse your cowardness by throwing the label of "calvinism" so that you will not have to confront and deal with the scriptures that don't support your personal philosophy. Think about it! I have not once called upon Calvin to support a single interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 but based my interpretation strictly upon the wording of Paul and you have not once ATTEMPTED much less been able to deal with the scripture text - not once! Instead you excuse yourself by cowardly throwing labels instead of dealing with the scriptural text. Why? Very simply - you cannot deal with the text because the text repudates your philosophical responses.

Again, keep your lies about me to yourself. Again, stop with the over posting on the personal attacks. In addition, you are a Calvinist, no matter how much you try to distance yourself from that man who murdered people.

Wait a minute!!! You have just previously stated that saved people do not deal with sin after the flesh so why should saved people be encouraged to stop what you claim they cannot do in the first place?????? Glaring contradiction!

Again, you wander away from what the scriptures say, so no wonder you say I say things that I do not. You are debating yourself and an imaginary person with your manufactured beliefs.

You are ignoring the fact that Paul says that he wants to do good according to his "mind" (Rom. 7:25) and according to his mind he "delights in the law of God" as this is IMPOSSIBLE for the lost man's mind - Romans 7:8 - "For the carnal mind is ENMITY against God and is NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD and NEITHER INDEED CAN BE."

You mean Romans 8:7 do you not. Romans 8:7 is about the people who resist God and who love darkness. Not everyone loves darkness.

The child of God can choose to walk after the Spirit or after the flesh or don't you believe the child of God has a free will???????

You are the one who does not believe we have free will, now you erroneously try to use it against me.

That is exactly what he IS saying in his conclusion in Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
All humans die! However, that is not what Paul is speaking about. He is speaking about "THIS BODY OF DEATH" in regard to indwelling sin that all Christians possess because they have not yet been glorified. When a child of God chooses to live after the flesh they suffer EXPERIENTIAL SEPARATION from the blessings of salvation - loss of joy, loss of fellowship, loss assurance, etc. That is one choice. The other choice is to "mortify the deeds of THE BODY, ye shall live" and he is talking about EXPERIENTIAL LIFE - or life more abundantly here and now. The choice is frustration and defeat or victory and blessings HERE AND NOW as a child of God.

I have already told you that Romans 8 IS about the saved man! In Romans 7, Paul is speaking of himself BEFORE Jesus saved him. In Romans 8, Paul is speaking about the saved man. Christians do not refer to their body as a body of death, no; we refer to our bodies as the temple of God. We wait for the redemption of our bodies, until then we offer our bodies as living sacrifices…we do not walk by the Spirit and continue to live in sin. If anyone is caught in sin, we talk to them about it and try to win them over. What you posted does not disprove that in Romans 7 Paul was speaking of himself before Jesus saved him!

That may be your profession but that may not be your reality. Your profession must stand the test of scripture and if you are claiming you can live above sin then the scripture says there is no truth in you (1 Jn. 1:8-10).

This is more and more of your personal attacks. You certainly have no fear that you are condemning a person who God has saved. I want to help you out, stop filling your posts with personal attacks. I could not care less what you think of me personally,, and your personal opinion of me does not help your false doctrine not one bit.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, keep your lies about me to yourself. Again, stop with the over posting on the personal attacks. In addition, you are a Calvinist, no matter how much you try to distance yourself from that man who murdered people.

What a hypocrit! Out of one side of your mouth you call me names that I have never once claimed or quoted and out of the other side of your mouth you complain about being described in unflattering realities. What a hypocrit!

Well, I have a novel idea! Why don't you stop calling me names and address the actual text and the arguments I set forth and I will stop claiming you don't address the text or arguments? Deal?

 

[Moriah]

What a hypocrit! Out of one side of your mouth you call me names that I have never once claimed or quoted and out of the other side of your mouth you complain about being described in unflattering realities. What a hypocrit!

Well, I have a novel idea! Why don't you stop calling me names and address the actual text and the arguments I set forth and I will stop claiming you don't address the text or arguments? Deal?

You want a deal, yet you could not help but make one more last false personal attack?

 

[The Biblicist]

You mean Romans 8:7 do you not. Romans 8:7 is about the people who resist God and who love darkness. Not everyone loves darkness. .

First, Romans 8:7 precedes verses 8-9 which classify all mankind into one of two classes - (1) those in the flesh versus (2) those in the Spirit - THERE IS NO THIRD CLASS as you imagine.

If you are "in the flesh" you are a lost man and this is the man being spoken of in Romans 8:7-8

If you are "in the Spirit" you are a saved man and this is the man being spoken of in Romans 8:9 - There is no third category and I quote:'

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

First, Did Paul or Calvin say the above words? Do you see the words "so then" in verse 8? Paul is drawing a conclusion to verse 7 by the words "so then." The person in verse seven is identified as a those "in the flesh" and the condition in verse 7 is a condition of "in the flesh" and that is why they cannot "please God" because the "carnal mind" which is at "enmity with God" obviously is not trying to please God. Because the "carnal mind" which is "not subject to the law of God" obviously does not "please God." Because the "carnal mind" which "neither indeed can be" simply CANNOT "please God" and "so then they that are IN THE FLESH cannot please God.

So then, the type of person being described in Romans 8:7 is "in the flesh" (v. 8).




9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did Paul say this or did Calvin? There are only two classes of mankind on planet earth. If you have the Spirit of God indwelling you then you are not "in the flesh" but if you do not have the Spirit of God indwelling you then you are "in the flesh" and "none of his." Hence, those who are "none of His" are all those "in the flesh" and all those "in the flesh" do not have "the Spirit of God" dwelling in them.

Therefore , you are wrong in your interpretation of Romans 8:7. All lost men are "in the flesh" and the one being described in Romans 8:7 are those "in the flesh" (v. 8).

Jn. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Question? Did Calvin say these words or Jesus Christ? Jesus is speaking about all those, every human being that is "condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Does any human being come into the world already believing in Jesus Christ? The obvious answer is no! Hence, all men come into this world "condemned already" because they come in as unbelievers in Christ.

All unbelievers in Christ are the "condemned" and all the "condemned" "loved darkenss....and hateth the light"

So again you are wrong! There are only two classes of human beings on earth - (1) Unbelievers and (2) believers - there is no third class as you suppose. No human being comes into the world believing in Jesus Christ and therefore every human being come into this world as "condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Neither Romans 8:7-9 or John 3:18-20 teach a THIRD class of human beings. All human beings are either (1) believers or (2) Unbelievers and if they are unbelievers they love darkness and hate the light.

All human beings are either (1) in the flesh or (2) in the Spirit and if they are "in the flesh" then they are carnally minded as Romans 8:7-8 says and cannot please God because of that carnal minded state.

However, the man in Romans 7:14-25 is not carnal minded but is spiritually minded. He is not at enmity with God but seeks to please God. He is not at war with the Law of God but delights in the law of God. He does not serve sin with his mind but serves God with his mind.

Here is the Biblical evidence, which I doubt you will even try to address but rather stick to your same game plan which is to assert your position without evidence and call me names in order to justify your conscience.

 

[Moriah]

First, Romans 8:7 precedes verses 8-9 which classify all mankind into one of two classes - (1) those in the flesh versus (2) those in the Spirit - THERE IS NO THIRD CLASS as you imagine.

At no time did I say there was a third class person. I have already explained to you before that Romans 8 is now about the saved. Romans 8 is not even the topic, Romans 7 is.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those scriptures do not say we cannot believe in Jesus after learning of him. The message that saves is powerful. Those who live according to the sinful nature have a carnal mind, which is not about everyone. That is about “Those who live according to the sinful nature” see Romans 8:5.

First, Did Paul or Calvin say the above words? Do you see the words "so then" in verse 8? Paul is drawing a conclusion to verse 7 by the words "so then." The person in verse seven is identified as a those "in the flesh" and the condition in verse 7 is a condition of "in the flesh" and that is why they cannot "please God" because the "carnal mind" which is at "enmity with God" obviously is not trying to please God. Because the "carnal mind" which is "not subject to the law of God" obviously does not "please God." Because the "carnal mind" which "neither indeed can be" simply CANNOT "please God" and "so then they that are IN THE FLESH cannot please God.

Calvinism talks people into believing that all only live by a carnal mind and cannot hear the gospel that saves. That is not what the scriptures say. The gospel is powerful. I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. See Romans 1:16. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Why did Jesus do miracles so that people might believe? People believed when Jesus did miracles. You said God makes people believe by saving them first. Nowhere do the scriptures say that; however, the scriptures tell us Jesus tried to get them to believe by the miracles he did. See John 10:38, But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." That scripture refutes Calvinist beliefs.

 

[The Biblicist]

At no time did I say there was a third class person.

You said that Romans 8:7 does not descibe all the lost! The context demands it does describe all the lost. Romans 8:8 defines the condition of Romans 8:7 to be the mindset of all who are "in the flesh" and the only other kind of people on planet earth are those "in the Spirit"! There is no third class people are lost but are not like those described in Romans 8:7-8. That is a figment of your imagination.

I proved the same thing with John 3:18-20. All lost people hate the light and love darkness because that is the description Jesus gives of ALL UNBELIEVERS and there are only two classes of people on planet earth (1) Unbelievers and (2) believers. Hence, there is no third class or unbelievers that do not hate the light and love the darkness except in the figment of your fertile imagination.

Calvinists are not the only ones that believe Romans 7:14-25 describes Paul as a saved person but operating according to his own flesh. Galatians 5:17 states the same thing and is addressed to SAVED CHURCH MEMBERS in the Galatian congregations.

 

[Andre]

Those who teach living above sin must interpret this passage by Paul to speaking of Paul as a lost religious man.

Those who deny eternal security of the believer must interpret this passage to be speaking of Paul as alost religous man.

However, this passage speaks directly of the saved man's struggle with sin for many contextual reasons.

I disagree - I am quite convinced that Romans 7 does not describe Paul the Christian. This does not mean that I believe that the Christian is above sin, but it does means that Romans 7 is the wrong text to make this case.

More later. This is a fascinating passage and I look forward to a cordial discussion of it, disagreements notwithstanding.

 

[Andre]

I fully intend to engage the actual posts of others, but I will start with this - an argument that I believe is a pretty solid one to the effect that Romans 7 cannot be describing the Christian:

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

 

[Andre]

A point of method. Although this shouldn't need to be said, the following line of arugment is invalid:

1. The Christian sins;
2. Romans 7 describes someone who sins
3. Therefore the person in Romans 7 must be a Christian.

Even if (1) and (2) are correct, (3) does not necessarily follow.

 

[Andre]

Those who teach living above sin must interpret this passage by Paul to speaking of Paul as a lost religious man.

Those who deny eternal security of the believer must interpret this passage to be speaking of Paul as alost religous man.

However, this passage speaks directly of the saved man's struggle with sin for many contextual reasons.

1. The description of the lost man and sin is found in Romans 1:18-3:23

I do not follow your argument. You appear to be arguing that since Paul addresses the sinning unbeliever in Romans 1, that he cannot also be describing the sinning unbeliever in Romans 7. Well, you need to make a case - there is no "rule" that once you treat one topic, you cannot return to it. In fact, Romans as a letter violates this principle all over the place - Paul repeatedly returns to the same theme.

Now to be fair: I am sure that you have an argument as to why the Romans 7 person is not an unbeliever. We'll get to that. But the fact that he writes about a non-believer in Romans 1 provides no evidence at all for your position.

 

[The Biblicist]

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

He is experiencing TWO laws not just one! One is the "law of my MIND" while the other is the law "in my MEMBERS"

The destination of "my members" or "the flesh" or "this body" is eventually DEATH is it not?

Second, I don't think you understand that "death" means separation and has a wider application than "spiritual" separation from God or "physical" separation from the body or "eternal" separation in gehenna! There is separation of the soul from the inward man under the dominion of the "law of sin in my members"! There is such a thing as EXPERIENTIAL separation when a child of God sins so that he is SEPARATED from fellowship with God, separated from the joy and peace OF God (not peace with God). There is also EXPERIENTIAL UNION or life when we are walking AFTER the Spirit or filled with the Spirit or UNDER the controlling influence of the Spirit so that we EXPERIENCE the union we have with the Spirit of God - the experience of peace, joy, love, etc.

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

Here Paul deals with two aspects of our salvation. The first is our position in Christ by justificaiton while the second is the Holy Spirit in us for sanctification. Positionally we have already been delivered from the law of sin and death but we are being delivered progressively by the work of the Holy Spirit IN and THROUGH us as we "walk" in the Spirit. We "live in the Spirit" but we do not always "walk in the Spirit" and that is where we EXPERIENCE union with God and we do not walk in the Spirit we experience separation from the POWER of the indwelling Spirit in our lives. This is the victory Paul anticipated in Romans 7:24 which is only EXPERIENCED by yeilding to the Spirit of God.

 

[Andre]

He is experiencing TWO laws not just one!

Yes, but this only supports my position.

The "law" of his mind is the Law of Moses. (I am prepared to make the case for this, if you disagree).

The "law" in his members is indeed a "second" law, since it is not the law of Moses.

So I think the argument remains - we have a law of sin and death which the person in Romans 7 escapes when he becomes the Christian in Romans 8.

It really seems hard to believe that Paul would describe a law of sin and death at work in his member in Romans 7, raise the question "who will deliver him from this law, and then go on to describe a person who is clearly a Christian in Romans 8 who has been delivered from a law of sin and death and yet expect us to think that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian.