• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Catholic Mary

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So in your mind you don't have to accept Jesus free gift? Huh. He just forces it on you then. The ability to accept is cooperation.

You do not understand the nature of justifying faith or you would not ask such a question.

Justifying faith or faith that embraces Jesus Christ and His provision for justificaiton is a work of God (Jn. 6:29) as no man cometh to the son except the father "draw him" (Jn. 6:44) as faith must be "given unto him of the Father" (Jn. 6:65) and every single one the father "teaches" will come to the Son (Jn. 6:45) and every single one that comes to the Son will be raised to resurrection of eternal life (Jn. 6:39,40,44) and so justifcation is "by faith" so as to be "of grace" (Rom. 4:16) whereas "works" are not of grace (Rom. 4:4).

We are justified by works but not OUR works but the works of Jesus Christ which are received through faith as the basis of imputed righteousness.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Calvin's Bible de Genève (1561):

[John 2:12]
2cqzfpw.jpg
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You do not understand the nature of justifying faith or you would not ask such a question.

Justifying faith or faith that embraces Jesus Christ and His provision for justificaiton is a work of God (Jn. 6:29) as no man cometh to the son except the father "draw him" (Jn. 6:44) as faith must be "given unto him of the Father" (Jn. 6:65) and every single one the father "teaches" will come to the Son (Jn. 6:45) and every single one that comes to the Son will be raised to resurrection of eternal life (Jn. 6:39,40,44) and so justifcation is "by faith" so as to be "of grace" (Rom. 4:16) whereas "works" are not of grace (Rom. 4:4).

We are justified by works but not OUR works but the works of Jesus Christ which are received through faith as the basis of imputed righteousness.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Paul had just stated that we are "justified freely by his grace" (v. 24). Now in verse 27 he challenges his readers to find any grounds for boasting. In this challenge "Where is boasting then" he immediately denies there is any grounds for boasting in justification "freely by his grace" by saying "IT IS EXCLUDED."

At this point he then considers only two contrasting alternatives and why one is based upon a principle (law) that would exclude all boasting while the other is based upon a principle (law) that would include boasting.

By what law? of works? Nay.

Justification based upon the "law" or "principle" of works promotes boasting because "works" by its very nature earns favor and makes the one you are working for indebted to you and this is precisely what Paul says a few verses later when he discusses the very same issue of boasting in regard to Abraham:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.....4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The same Greek word translated "glory" in Romans 4:2 is the very same word translated "boasting" in our text in Romans 3:27.

This is what Paul means by "the law" of works. The term "law" is used here to describe the underlying PRINCIPLE by which something operates. Justification based upon the PRINCIPLE "of works" promotes boasting because "works" by its very NATURE places the one you are working for in your "debt" and therefore it is not of grace:

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

That is the "law" or Principle that defines the nature "works".

Hence, the term "law" here has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law or the Law written upon the heart of Gentiles or any human law. Instead it is used here by Paul in the same sense we use the term "law" when we talk about the "law of gravity" or the principle by which gravity operates and thus what it is by nature.

Paul then denies that justification by the law "of works" excudes boasting:

By what law? of works? Nay.

By its very nature or according to the principle that characterizes it, Justification cannot be by works because "works" always incurs "debt" and therefore is not of grace:

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Hence, Paul has excluded all doctrines of justification based upon the principle or "law" of works. That would exclude justification by the Law of Moses because that is based upon the principle of works. That would exclude the Law written in the conscience of Gentiles because that is based upon the very same principle or law of works.

The only "law" or principle that can Justify sinners which excludes all boasting is justification by the law or principle of faith because "faith" excludes all grounds for boasting because it excludes all "works":

"5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Note that "worketh not" is contrasted "but" with "beleiveth on him" and that is "without works."

Hence, the only basis for justification that excludes boasting is justification by faith without works:

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law
.

This is the only basis that provides LEVEL ground for both Jews and Gentiles alike before God because it excludes all works done by both in response to either the Law of Moses or the Law written on their conscience and equally provides justification based upon FAITH ALONE "without works":

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Moreover, this is the only way the Law of God whether it is revealed in the Mosaic Law or it is revealed in the conscience to Gentiles can be established by the believer and not be violated or made void. Because justification is by faith alone in another who acted as their substitute in keeping the law and satisfied it completely and fully in their behalf and that is what they embrace by faith in the gospel the finished work of Jesus Christ that satisfies all the laws requirement and imputes his righteousness, the righteousness of God, the righteousness revealed in the Mosaic law and the righteousness revealed in conscience, that righteousness is imputed to them by faith:


31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

In contrast, all others "have sinned and come short of the glory of God" therefore, "no flesh" can be justified by the law of works, "ALL the world" stands condemned by the law of works and "every mouth" is stopped from boasting that they have fulfilled the law by works. Hence, BY FAITH ALONE in the finished work and Person of Christ is the only "law" or "principle" that does not make "void the Law" but establishes the Law in behalf of the beleiver.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Roman Catholic "virgin Mary" is a demon formerly known in the Babylonian Religion as "The Queen of Heaven" who was prayed to along with other spirit "gods" but Rome has Christianized this demon's name in order to protect the guilty and called these demons they pray to "saints."

However, the bible calls all Christians living or departed as "saints" and there is not one example or one precept where any child of God prayed to any departed created spirit. Hence, where does this practice originate? "Mystery Babylon" or pagan religion that has been Christianized by Rome.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
John Gill explains John 2:12

"or near kinsmen, according to the flesh, the sons of Alphaeus. . .James, Joses, Simon, and Judas, three of which afterwards became his apostles"
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You do not understand the nature of justifying faith or you would not ask such a question.
The Catholic Church has never understood salvation by grace through faith, or justification by faith.
Here are their beliefs straight from the horse's mouth:
1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us "holy and without blemish," just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15


III. THE CONVERSION OF THE BAPTIZED
1427 Jesus calls to conversion. This call is an essential part of the proclamation of the kingdom: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."16 In the Church's preaching this call is addressed first to those who do not yet know Christ and his Gospel. Also, Baptism is the principal place for the first and fundamental conversion. It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism17 that one renounces evil and gains salvation, that is, the forgiveness of all sins and the gift of new life.



1428 Christ's call to conversion continues to resound in the lives of Christians. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church who, "clasping sinners to her bosom, [is] at once holy and always in need of purification, [and] follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."18 This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work. It is the movement of a "contrite heart," drawn and moved by grace to respond to the merciful love of God who loved us first.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1426


Let us note some things about the teaching given in the Catechism.
1. Salvation is only through the RCC and no other organization. Whenever "The Church" is referred to in the Catechism it refers to the Roman Catholic Church and no other. Thus here it says:
The Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish.
--This is absolute heresy, and the mark of a cult. Only a cult would say that salvation is only through their sect and no other church or religion.



2. Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism,
Note here that salvation is not through Christ but through baptism. Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me (John 14:6).

The RCC teaches the opposite; that baptism is the way; that conversion is through baptism, and not through Christ.



3. It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism17 that one renounces evil and gains salvation,

--But this is not what the Bible teaches, is it?
1Cor.15:1-4 makes it very clear that the gospel alone saves. "I have preached unto you the gospel...by the which you are saved." Fairly clear isn't it?


4. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church
--Now the RCC speaks of a second conversion, another heresy. A person can only be saved or converted one time and one time only. There is no cooperation with God as is implied here. God does the saving, and it happens one time in a person's live. It is an event not a process.



5. This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work.
--Not JUST a human work. No, the work is all of God. There is no human work at all. Jesus paid it all. He said: "It is finished." The RCC takes away from the atoning work of Christ. They believe that the blood of Christ was not sufficient and therefore must help Christ in his salvation; must "cooperate" with him in order that they be saved. Christ's sacrifice was not good enough.



This is good enough to show that their salvation is a salvation of works. It is heresy. It is not according to the Word of God. Don't believe it.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
John Gill explains John 2:12

"or near kinsmen, according to the flesh, the sons of Alphaeus. . .James, Joses, Simon, and Judas, three of which afterwards became his apostles"

Why did you cut off the first words that introduced his statement which were "His brethren"??????

He provides no contextual evidence for the "or" application. Can you?
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Catholic Church has never understood salvation by grace through faith, or justification by faith.
Here are their beliefs straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1426


Let us note some things about the teaching given in the Catechism.
1. Salvation is only through the RCC and no other organization. Whenever "The Church" is referred to in the Catechism it refers to the Roman Catholic Church and no other. Thus here it says:
The Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish.
--This is absolute heresy, and the mark of a cult. Only a cult would say that salvation is only through their sect and no other church or religion.

2. Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism,
Note here that salvation is not through Christ but through baptism. Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me (John 14:6).

The RCC teaches the opposite; that baptism is the way; that conversion is through baptism, and not through Christ.



3. It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism17 that one renounces evil and gains salvation,

--But this is not what the Bible teaches, is it?
1Cor.15:1-4 makes it very clear that the gospel alone saves. "I have preached unto you the gospel...by the which you are saved." Fairly clear isn't it?


4. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church
--Now the RCC speaks of a second conversion, another heresy. A person can only be saved or converted one time and one time only. There is no cooperation with God as is implied here. God does the saving, and it happens one time in a person's live. It is an event not a process.



5. This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work.
--Not JUST a human work. No, the work is all of God. There is no human work at all. Jesus paid it all. He said: "It is finished." The RCC takes away from the atoning work of Christ. They believe that the blood of Christ was not sufficient and therefore must help Christ in his salvation; must "cooperate" with him in order that they be saved. Christ's sacrifice was not good enough.



This is good enough to show that their salvation is a salvation of works. It is heresy. It is not according to the Word of God. Don't believe it.

Good post! Don't worry I am in no danger of being deceived by their double talk.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
The Roman Catholic "virgin Mary" is a demon formerly known in the Babylonian Religion as "The Queen of Heaven" who was prayed to along with other spirit "gods" but Rome has Christianized this demon's name in order to protect the guilty and called these demons they pray to "saints."

However, the bible calls all Christians living or departed as "saints" and there is not one example or one precept where any child of God prayed to any departed created spirit. Hence, where does this practice originate? "Mystery Babylon" or pagan religion that has been Christianized by Rome.

Its just amazing, isint it, how Catholics are, for the most part, completly blinded from the truth regarding issues of this sort?

Tragic..tragic..tragic. So very very sad. :tear::tear::tear:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JarJo

New Member
The Roman Catholic "virgin Mary" is a demon formerly known in the Babylonian Religion as "The Queen of Heaven" who was prayed to along with other spirit "gods" but Rome has Christianized this demon's name in order to protect the guilty and called these demons they pray to "saints."

I think you're making a logical error here. What's to stop someone from using the same logic and say that the Jesus Christ that Baptists worship is really, say, a Christianized Thor or Jupiter or any other false god?
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why did you cut off the first words that introduced his statement which were "His brethren"??????

Sigh.

As I posted, he was explaining those words from the verse.

I'm not saying I agree with Gill or Calvin on this, just pointing out what has been taught by Reformed orthodoxy.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
Its just amazing, isint it, how Catholics are, for the most part, completly blinded from the truth regarding issues of this sort?

Tragic..tragic..tragic. So very very sad. :tear::tear::tear:

satan has been allowed by God to blind the hearts/minds of those that reject Jesus by their own voliation, and the biggest "tool" that he has to propagate a false Gospel/false Christ is in the RCC!

the RCC has saved persons residing within it, but saved DESPITE the RCC doctrines, they saved as ALL of us are, due to the elective grace of God!
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think you're making a logical error here. What's to stop someone from using the same logic and say that the Jesus Christ that Baptists worship is really, say, a Christianized Thor or Jupiter or any other false god?

There is no logical error involved here. Indeed, what I am saying is very logical. You cannot find one example in Scripture of any child of God praying to a departed created spirit - not one. You cannot find one precept in the Bible that teaches we are to pray to any departed spirit. Therefore, it has NO BIBLICAL ROOT OR ORIGIN with God.

We can find it in the pagan Roman religion both before and during the rise of the Roman Catholic Church to the state religion of Rome. We can find the demon identified as "The Queen of Heaven" both in the Old Testament and in early Rome in the Latin worship of Cybele "the Mother God" whose temple was built upon Vatican hill and whose son Attica died and resurrected.

We can find the Pontif Maximus and the college of Pontifs in Rome prior to the rise of the Roman Catholic State church.

It is completely logical that the original source of saint worship, praying to Mary as "The Queen of Heaven" and the "Maximus Pontif" all originate with Babylonian Religion and not the Scriptures. The Mary of Roman Catholicism is the demon identified by the Old Testament prophets "The Queen of Heaven" and the saints of the Roman Catholic Church are the demons worshipped as "gods" in pagan Romanism.

In contrast your inference that the Baptist "Jesus Christ" is a Christianized "Thor" or some other pagan god has no connection or basis in Baptist history or theology whatsoever! On the contrary our view of Jesus Christ is found in the scriptures and there are Biblical examples and precepts. Not so with you praying to Mary or saints.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sigh.

As I posted, he was explaining those words from the verse.

I'm not saying I agree with Gill or Calvin on this, just pointing out what has been taught by Reformed orthodoxy.

Others have pointed out what has been taught by Roman Catholic orthodoxy. So what? The Bible does not validate any of it. Nowhere does the Bible teach that Mary was born sinless. Nowhere does the Bible teach that Mary was to be a perpetual virgin. Nowhere does the bible teach the ascension of Mary to heaven - all of these are myths rooted in paganism with the demon named "The Queen of Heaven" which was worshipped by ancient Jews and by Romans, the same Romans converted in mass into the Roman Catholic State Church.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I think you're making a logical error here. What's to stop someone from using the same logic and say that the Jesus Christ that Baptists worship is really, say, a Christianized Thor or Jupiter or any other false god?
The Christ we worship is the Christ of the Bible; not made with hands--wood, silver, gold, or any other such thing. In John 4:24 it says, God is spirit, they that worship him must worship must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The RCC has a false God. They have images of God which the Bible expressly forbids in the Ten Commandments. These images never appeared until the time of the Renaissance. They were the product of some man's vain imagination, probably not even a saved man--certainly not a Godly man. You worship and bow down before the statue of whom you think to be Christ, or whom you think to be Mary, but in reality is not. You have no idea what they looked like.

Your religion is no differ from Hinduism.
1. You bow down before images, just like the Hindus do. Let me ask you. If you were to ask a Hindu when he bows down before the image (idol) of Ganesh (elephant god), or Rama (Lord of virtue), do they actually believe that the image that they are praying to is indeed the "Lord of virtue," or is that simply a representative of that "Lord"? If you think that the idol itself is the actual "god" and tell them that, you would offend and insult them. They know better. Don't insult their intelligence. They don't worship idols or images. They worship the god (demon) behind it, or that it represents.
You do the same thing! You worship the Mary or the Christ that the image represents. That is idolatry.

2. The Hindus worship many gods. They are polytheistic. So are you. You have elevated Mary to godhood. You attribute to her the same attributes that God alone has. You pray to her (worship). God alone is to be worshiped, and worthy of our prayers. You attribute to her both omniscience and omnipresent. In order to answer Catholic prayers of Catholics the world over Mary would have to be every where and all knowing. You have elevated her to godhood. The Catholics, therefore have more than one God. Like the Hindus they are polytheistic.

3. They believe that baptism washes away sin.
Every year the Hindus baptize themselves in the polluted waters of the Ganges River thinking that that "holy" water will wash away their sins. Deceived aren't they? But you are just as deceived thinking that baptism will wash away your sins. The Bible teaches no such thing.

Conclusion: Catholicism is a world religion, but a pagan one, not much different than Hinduism. Its Christ is not the Christ of the Bible; its God is not the God of the Bible. You have defined Christ and God on different parameters that God, in His Word has given.

Since the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine (something you reject) we know that the Christ we serve is the Biblical Christ. He is alive. And more than that I can say without reservation that I have a personal relationship with him. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if I were to die this day that I would go straight to heaven. My faith is not a religion. It is a relationship with Jesus Christ.
 

JarJo

New Member
Hi DHK,

The Christ we worship is the Christ of the Bible; not made with hands--wood, silver, gold, or any other such thing. In John 4:24 it says, God is spirit, they that worship him must worship must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The RCC has a false God. They have images of God which the Bible expressly forbids in the Ten Commandments. These images never appeared until the time of the Renaissance. They were the product of some man's vain imagination, probably not even a saved man--certainly not a Godly man. You worship and bow down before the statue of whom you think to be Christ, or whom you think to be Mary, but in reality is not. You have no idea what they looked like.

What about when I pray and there is no statue? Most of the time I don't pray in front of a crucifix. Usually I just think about the Jesus of the bible when I pray in His name. Do you believe even those prayers won't get heard by God?

Your religion is no differ from Hinduism.
1. You bow down before images, just like the Hindus do. Let me ask you. If you were to ask a Hindu when he bows down before the image (idol) of Ganesh (elephant god), or Rama (Lord of virtue), do they actually believe that the image that they are praying to is indeed the "Lord of virtue," or is that simply a representative of that "Lord"? If you think that the idol itself is the actual "god" and tell them that, you would offend and insult them. They know better. Don't insult their intelligence. They don't worship idols or images. They worship the god (demon) behind it, or that it represents.
You do the same thing! You worship the Mary or the Christ that the image represents. That is idolatry.

I think the big difference is that our statues are statues of Christ, not of Ganesh, etc. Isn't that the most important difference, the god that the statue represents?

2. The Hindus worship many gods. They are polytheistic. So are you. You have elevated Mary to godhood. You attribute to her the same attributes that God alone has. You pray to her (worship). God alone is to be worshiped, and worthy of our prayers. You attribute to her both omniscience and omnipresent. In order to answer Catholic prayers of Catholics the world over Mary would have to be every where and all knowing. You have elevated her to godhood. The Catholics, therefore have more than one God. Like the Hindus they are polytheistic.

I certainly haven't elevated Mary to anything like a goddess at least in my own mind. Isn't that what counts, what's in my mind and my intent?

3. They believe that baptism washes away sin.
Every year the Hindus baptize themselves in the polluted waters of the Ganges River thinking that that "holy" water will wash away their sins. Deceived aren't they? But you are just as deceived thinking that baptism will wash away your sins. The Bible teaches no such thing.

Didn't John the Baptist also practice baptism for the forgiveness of sins? So it's not exclusively pagan. The symbolism of water washing away sins just happens to be a very obvious one that many religions have used.
 

mandym

New Member
Hi DHK,



What about when I pray and there is no statue? Most of the time I don't pray in front of a crucifix. Usually I just think about the Jesus of the bible when I pray in His name. Do you believe even those prayers won't get heard by God?



I think the big difference is that our statues are statues of Christ, not of Ganesh, etc. Isn't that the most important difference, the god that the statue represents?



I certainly haven't elevated Mary to anything like a goddess at least in my own mind. Isn't that what counts, what's in my mind and my intent?



Didn't John the Baptist also practice baptism for the forgiveness of sins? So it's not exclusively pagan. The symbolism of water washing away sins just happens to be a very obvious one that many religions have used.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top