God has the power to accomplish all his will, Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? If it is God's will to eternally save all mankind, then he will do just that, but that idea would contradict other scriptures. The only conclusion is that God does not want to eternally save all mankind, only his elect.
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Who are the elect?
- Thread starter Winman
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If it is God's will to eternally save all mankind, then you are going to have a terriable time explaining Dan 4:35.You have yet to show scriptural proof of your theory. Not one verse ever says God chose some to not be saved. God and the Bible are not logical according to men never have been. To be chosen means that Christ is the propitation for the whole world. Where is particular election in that? Simply there is none. If man isn't saved it isn't so because God did not choose him. It because the man rebeled and would not submit to the righteousness of God. Just as Paul's brother Jews in Rom. 10:1-4
MB
If God wills that all mankind is to be eternally saved, and he accomplishes all his will, then all mankind will be saved, Dan 4:35 and Isa 50:2.Not unless it was His determined will would it have any effect on His omniscience. However it is not His determined will that anyone in particular be saved against there own wills. God is Love and Because of this man must love Him back of his own freewill. Calvinist seem to ignore this fact. That love Is;
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
How can God be love and force man in to a false one sided relationship?
MB
convicted1
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God has the power to accomplish all his will, Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? If it is God's will to eternally save all mankind, then he will do just that, but that idea would contradict other scriptures. The only conclusion is that God does not want to eternally save all mankind, only his elect.
So me in the bible where God is not willing to save someone....I have a feeling you'll have a hard time searching that out.
Paul ask the brethren at the church of the Thessalonians to pray for him that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you; And that he delivered from unreasonable (the natural man) and wicked men; for all men have not faith. Paul only wanted to preach to those that have faith. God says "if they have not the Spirit, they are none of his". God chastens all those that he loves. He does not chasten all mankind, Ps 73:5 and Job 21:9. You did not explain Dan 4:35.So me in the bible where God is not willing to save someone....I have a feeling you'll have a hard time searching that out.
So me in the bible where God is not willing to save someone....I have a feeling you'll have a hard time searching that out.
Gods Will is that NONE would perish, but MANY still do!
MB.
This is incoherent. What were you trying to say?...take your time...and get out a whole thought...
Believ that he holds to Jesus death being atonement/payment for the sins of all mankind..., not JUST for the elect of God...
Does God desire that all men be saved? Does this men God will save everyone, or is it more correct to say God will save those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Therefore many are called. Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. But only those who receive the reconciliation are saved, therefore the call, be reconciled to God."
God will save those whom He gas decided to place into the Body of Christ, based upon HIS free will choice to place them there, NOT based upon the basis on if we accept Jesus or not!
You are taking your point from 2 Pet 3:9. We have to go back to 2 Pet 3:1 to find out who Peter is talking to and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith, so they are already children of God. Peter in 2Pet 3:9 is giving the children of God a warning that when they sin to repent of that sin to keep from perishing (losing their fellowship with God), not eternal torment. Peter even included himself in this warning by using the word "us-ward".Gods Will is that NONE would perish, but MANY still do!
Not according to John 6:37-41, it is for his elect (those that he gave to his Son). He will not lose a one of those that he died for, but raise them all up at the last day. Christ did not die for all mankind.Believ that he holds to Jesus death being atonement/payment for the sins of all mankind..., not JUST for the elect of God...
psalms109:31
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double post
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Isaiah 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.
Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
John 6:
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Acts 5:
29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Isaiah 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.
Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
John 6:
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Acts 5:
29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
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Alive in Christ
New Member
Dachaser1....
That makes God a liar.
God has said in His scriptures that...
He has said in His scriptures...
He has said in His scriptures that He...
God will save those whom He gas decided to place into the Body of Christ, based upon HIS free will choice to place them there, NOT based upon the basis on if we accept Jesus or not!
That makes God a liar.
God has said in His scriptures that...
it is NOT his desire that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and be saved.
He has said in His scriptures...
Come to me ALL you who are weary and heavey laden, and I will give you rest.
He has said in His scriptures that He...
Gives Light (potentially saving revelation, depending on acceptance) to every man who comes into the world.
Dachaser1 said:God will save those whom He gas decided to place into the Body of Christ, based upon HIS free will choice to place them there, NOT based upon the basis on if we accept Jesus or not!
That makes God a liar.
God has said in His scriptures that...
it is NOT his desire that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and be saved.
How does that make God to be a liar? You don't believe God saves everyone right? Was God limited in whom he could save? Then God isn't omnipotent if someone can limit him. So God has chosen not to save everyone. Condition or unconditional, God has not chosen to save everyone. I have no doubt that He has a desire for all to repent and be saved, but obviously there is something else going on because we know that not all are saved.
Yes he has. You highlighed "all." Of course all that come will be saved. No one denies that. Dachaser1's wording could have been a little better. Election doesn't' teach that peopel will believe but God won't save them. What's missing in Dachaser1's statement is that none will want to come to him.He has said in His scriptures...
"Come to me ALL you who are weary and heavey laden, and I will give you rest."
However, "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."He has said in His scriptures that He...gives Light (potentially saving revelation, depending on acceptance) to every man who comes into the world.
2 Pet 3:9, To understand who Peter is tlking to we have to go back to 2 Pet 3:1 and he is talking to them that have obtained like precious faith. Peter is giving these children of God a warning that when they sin, they should repent of the sin so they will not perish(lose their fellowship with God). Peter even includes himself in the warning by using the word "us-ward". Matt 11:28, Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest for your souls. Jesus is telling those of the elect that are labouring and heavy laden with the burden of depending upon their rightious works to save them eternally, to learn of him (what he accomplished for them on the cross) and they will find rest for their souls. The rest Jesus is talking about is not eternal rest but a rest from depending upon their works. If we believe in the thought that God wants to save all mankind, we cannot harmonise all scriptures and hold to that belief. All scriptures must harmonise to understand the truth. Dan 4:35 says that God accomplishes all his will and if his will is that all mankind be saved, then he would save them. We have other scriptures such as Matt 25:46 that tell us that some will not be saved. In light of other scriptures we have to conclude that the "every man" in John 1:9 is every man of God's elect.Dachaser1....
That makes God a liar.
God has said in His scriptures that...
He has said in His scriptures...
He has said in His scriptures that He...
Alive in Christ
New Member
JBH28...
ONLY when they have heard and considered, and heard and considered, and heard and considered, for who knows how long.
The scriptures inform us that God is longsuffering, NOT wanting any to be lost. Only when they are COMPLETELY given over to unbelief does God harden them. And it breaks his heart to do it.
God is allways...always alwas always wanting to save...save...save....and then save some more.
However, "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
ONLY when they have heard and considered, and heard and considered, and heard and considered, for who knows how long.
The scriptures inform us that God is longsuffering, NOT wanting any to be lost. Only when they are COMPLETELY given over to unbelief does God harden them. And it breaks his heart to do it.
God is allways...always alwas always wanting to save...save...save....and then save some more.
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Alive in Christ
New Member
Forest...
I agree with this.
I agree.
Sure we can. There is problem at all. They work together just fine.
No. Thats not true at all.
God has given us a choice. God presents to every human a choice. Normally this is the Gosple message. We believe and we recieve eternal life. If someone has not heard the gosple, they will be judged by how they have responded to the God sent "light" that they HAVE recieved.
Do you see now?
Yes. Sadly, many will choose the darkness rather than Christ.
That is incorrect. "Every man" means every person on earth. By now probably most on earth have heard the Gosple. The ones who die having never heard the gosple will judged according to how they responded to the God sent revelation they DID hear.
God bless
2 Pet 3:9, To understand who Peter is tlking to we have to go back to 2 Pet 3:1 and he is talking to them that have obtained like precious faith. Peter is giving these children of God a warning that when they sin, they should repent of the sin so they will not perish(lose their fellowship with God). Peter even includes himself in the warning by using the word "us-ward.
I agree with this.
Matt 11:28, Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest for your souls. Jesus is telling those of the elect that are labouring and heavy laden with the burden of depending upon their rightious works to save them eternally, to learn of him (what he accomplished for them on the cross) and they will find rest for their souls.
I agree.
The rest Jesus is talking about is not eternal rest but a rest from depending upon their works. If we believe in the thought that God wants to save all mankind, we cannot harmonise all scriptures and hold to that belief.
Sure we can. There is problem at all. They work together just fine.
All scriptures must harmonise to understand the truth. Dan 4:35 says that God accomplishes all his will and if his will is that all mankind be saved, then he would save them.
No. Thats not true at all.
God has given us a choice. God presents to every human a choice. Normally this is the Gosple message. We believe and we recieve eternal life. If someone has not heard the gosple, they will be judged by how they have responded to the God sent "light" that they HAVE recieved.
Do you see now?
We have other scriptures such as Matt 25:46 that tell us that some will not be saved.
Yes. Sadly, many will choose the darkness rather than Christ.
In light of other scriptures we have to conclude that the "every man" in John 1:9 is every man of God's elect.
That is incorrect. "Every man" means every person on earth. By now probably most on earth have heard the Gosple. The ones who die having never heard the gosple will judged according to how they responded to the God sent revelation they DID hear.
God bless
That is incorrect. "Every man" means every person on earth. By now probably most on earth have heard the Gosple. The ones who die having never heard the gosple will judged according to how they responded to the God sent revelation they DID hear.
God bless
That is not biblical. No one comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ.
Jesus was the same light that God had always given to man, only in bodily form (coming into the world).
General revelation (or the light that God gives everyone through creation and conscience) is not enough to save. One MUST have faith in Jesus.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Amy.g
On the contrary, it is exceedingly biblical.
I agree completly! Jesus Christ is the savior of all the redeemed. I have not posted anything to the contrary to that.
Absolutely!
I agree. However, we know have a big problem.
Millions upon millions have lived and died having never heard the gosple or even the name Jesus Christ. There are millions upon millions even today who have never heard of Christ, and well die never never hearing even his name.
Since God has told us that "It is not his will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"...we pretty much have 2 options.
1) God is incompetant. He is a fumbling bumbling God who cant pull off His objective of saving all of the "whosover wills.
Millions upon millions end up in hell, with no chance of salvation, simply because....they lived too far away.
Or, option 2....
And of course that True Light, that gives light to every man who comes into the world, is none other than The Lord Jesus Christ!.
What a wonderfull God and Savior we have!!!
That is not biblical.
On the contrary, it is exceedingly biblical.
No one comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ.
I agree completly! Jesus Christ is the savior of all the redeemed. I have not posted anything to the contrary to that.
Jesus was the same light that God had always given to man, only in bodily form (coming into the world).
Absolutely!
General revelation (or the light that God gives everyone through creation and conscience) is not enough to save. One MUST have faith in Jesus.
I agree. However, we know have a big problem.
Millions upon millions have lived and died having never heard the gosple or even the name Jesus Christ. There are millions upon millions even today who have never heard of Christ, and well die never never hearing even his name.
Since God has told us that "It is not his will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"...we pretty much have 2 options.
1) God is incompetant. He is a fumbling bumbling God who cant pull off His objective of saving all of the "whosover wills.
Millions upon millions end up in hell, with no chance of salvation, simply because....they lived too far away.
Or, option 2....
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
And of course that True Light, that gives light to every man who comes into the world, is none other than The Lord Jesus Christ!.
What a wonderfull God and Savior we have!!!
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I am afraid that you do not understand Dan 4:35, can you explain what you think it means?Forest...
I agree with this.
I agree.
Sure we can. There is problem at all. They work together just fine.
No. Thats not true at all.
God has given us a choice. God presents to every human a choice. Normally this is the Gosple message. We believe and we recieve eternal life. If someone has not heard the gosple, they will be judged by how they have responded to the God sent "light" that they HAVE recieved.
Do you see now?
Yes. Sadly, many will choose the darkness rather than Christ.
That is incorrect. "Every man" means every person on earth. By now probably most on earth have heard the Gosple. The ones who die having never heard the gosple will judged according to how they responded to the God sent revelation they DID hear.
God bless
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