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Osas?
- Thread starter Moriah
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Again, here is the original post.
WestminsterMan
New Member
If Moriah is making the claim that what he writes is by inspiration of God and furthermore this claim is affirmed by his response to any Biblical evidence contrary to what he writes. He responds by either ignoring or dismissing our objections as our inability to interpret the scriptures in keeping with his interpretation, then, tell me how can we have any kind of rational discussion about OSAS or any other subject? He simply declares his interpetations as correct, doesn't bother to defend them against valid objections but rather tells everyone else they are spiritual blind, etc. No reasonable responses to reasonal objections but rather acts as though he has spoken for God and anyone resisting is stupid, blind or lost.
I think this question has everything to do with OSAS and any other Biblical topic we discuss with Moriah.
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That is the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriah
The Jews were saved for following the law.
Paul says the Jews could never be saved for following the law:
Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
You say they were saved for following the Law! Paul says they were not! Peter says that salvation prior to the coming of Christ was by faith looking to Christ and not the by following the law:
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
The Writer of Hebrews claims the Jews in the day of Moses who were not saved due to failing to receive this same gospel by faith:
Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
So how could the Jews be saved for following the Law when New Testament writers claim that salvation is through the gospel prior to the coming of Christ as well as after the coming of Christ! Isn't this exactly what Christ says in John 14:6 that "no man cometh" to the Father but by him?
Originally Posted by Moriah
The Jews were saved for following the law.
Paul says the Jews could never be saved for following the law:
Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
You say they were saved for following the Law! Paul says they were not! Peter says that salvation prior to the coming of Christ was by faith looking to Christ and not the by following the law:
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
The Writer of Hebrews claims the Jews in the day of Moses who were not saved due to failing to receive this same gospel by faith:
Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
So how could the Jews be saved for following the Law when New Testament writers claim that salvation is through the gospel prior to the coming of Christ as well as after the coming of Christ! Isn't this exactly what Christ says in John 14:6 that "no man cometh" to the Father but by him?
Isn't salvation the act of God whereby He secures your willing cooperation by giving you a new heart and spirit disposed to true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24)? Indeed, isn't this willingness secured by God through working in all His people that very willingness or as expressed in Paul's words "For it is God which worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13)?
It would appear that if a true child of God becomes unwilling it is God's fault as it is his work in them that produces such willingness according to Paul.
I think Paul is saying that apart from God's Spirit working in us that we wouldn't be willing to please Him. Apart from the working of the Spirit, we only want to please ourselves. If we fail, it's not God's fault. We fight the flesh everyday and sometimes we lose. But we never lose God's Spirit in us as He is our surety for eternal life. We are sealed for the day of redemption.
Our friend MUST have the only Copy of Romans 2, in which Apsotle sd that he was one when he said that what the law could NOT do, saves inful people due to our weak flesh, the Gospel could and did!
All who are debating me please answer each of these questions.
Were the Jews God's chosen people?
Were all Jews God's chosen people?
Did the Jews have to follow certain works of the law like circumcision, or else be cut off?
Were the Jews to make sin offerings?
Could Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
Why did Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
I have more questions if anyone is interested in this debate. Please answer these questions first.
Were the Jews God's chosen people?
Were all Jews God's chosen people?
Did the Jews have to follow certain works of the law like circumcision, or else be cut off?
Were the Jews to make sin offerings?
Could Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
Why did Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
I have more questions if anyone is interested in this debate. Please answer these questions first.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriah
The Jews were saved for following the law.
Paul says the Jews could never be saved for following the law:
Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
You say they were saved for following the Law! Paul says they were not! Peter says that salvation prior to the coming of Christ was by faith looking to Christ and not the by following the law:
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
The Writer of Hebrews claims the Jews in the day of Moses who were not saved due to failing to receive this same gospel by faith:
Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
So how could the Jews be saved for following the Law when New Testament writers claim that salvation is through the gospel prior to the coming of Christ as well as after the coming of Christ! Isn't this exactly what Christ says in John 14:6 that "no man cometh" to the Father but by him?
New Testament writers deny that all Jews were God's people according to faith while they were God's chosen people according to PROFESSION.
New Testament writers deny that sacrifices actuall remitting any sins literally (Heb. 10:1-4) but their sins were remitted by faith in the coming Christ (Acts 10:43).
No, only those had put faith in promises of God as regards the coming Messiah[/quote]
Did the Jews have to follow certain works of the law like circumcision, or else be cut off?
Were the Jews to make sin offerings?
Could Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
Why did Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
I have more questions if anyone is interested in this debate. Please answer these questions first.[/QUOTE]
Just a little more clarity here will go a long way Moriah, instead of complaining about it. Be forthright and clear in your position so there is no confusion.
Stop adding to God’s word. No one will be JUSTIFIED for following the law. We are saved, and justified through faith in Jesus Christ.
Again, JUSTIFIED is what the scriptures say.
We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Jews who did not believe in Jesus WERE CUT OFF. This cutting off shows that they were saved. Jesus did not come for about four thousand years.
If the Jews followed the law of works, then they were called God’s chosen people.
Use scripture. I do not see any scripture that says the Jews did not have to do the works of the law but only profess!
You just did not want to answer the questions that would help you understand. Why is that? Why would you just not answer the questions? You only repeated yourself.
Moriah: All who are debating me please answer each of these questions.
Were the Jews God's chosen people?
DaChaser1: Underr the old covenant, YES
Moriah: Were all Jews God's chosen people?
DaChaser1: No, only those had put faith in promises of God as regards the coming Messiah
Moriah: If not all Jews were God’s chosen people, then what were they called? Why did God say He will judge His people? Hebrews 10:30. Why did God cut branches off His Tree, people, that were Jews? See Matthew 7:19, and John 15;2.
Moriah: Did the Jews have to follow certain works of the law like circumcision, or else be cut off?
DaChaswer1: yes, as God gave it as being thesign of being part of the Covenant people/nation...
did NOT save anyone though but performing that act!
Moriah: What did you say? I do not understand what you are saying. So, am I correct in you saying that the Jews were God’s if they obeyed the laws? So, if a Jew followed the law and was circumcised he was a person called God’s people. Now, explain again what you were trying to say. In addition, explain to me who the people are in Psalms’ 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Moriah: Were the Jews to make sin offerings?
DaChaswer1: many and several
Moriah: Could Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
DaChaser1: could, not accepted by god though
Moriah: Please show me with scripture.
Moriah: Why did Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
Moriah: You did not answer this last question.
To DaChaswer1, The way you put your answers in quotes made it so I could not quote you. That is why I replied in this format.
Were the Jews God's chosen people?
DaChaser1: Underr the old covenant, YES
Moriah: Were all Jews God's chosen people?
DaChaser1: No, only those had put faith in promises of God as regards the coming Messiah
Moriah: If not all Jews were God’s chosen people, then what were they called? Why did God say He will judge His people? Hebrews 10:30. Why did God cut branches off His Tree, people, that were Jews? See Matthew 7:19, and John 15;2.
Moriah: Did the Jews have to follow certain works of the law like circumcision, or else be cut off?
DaChaswer1: yes, as God gave it as being thesign of being part of the Covenant people/nation...
did NOT save anyone though but performing that act!
Moriah: What did you say? I do not understand what you are saying. So, am I correct in you saying that the Jews were God’s if they obeyed the laws? So, if a Jew followed the law and was circumcised he was a person called God’s people. Now, explain again what you were trying to say. In addition, explain to me who the people are in Psalms’ 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Moriah: Were the Jews to make sin offerings?
DaChaswer1: many and several
Moriah: Could Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
DaChaser1: could, not accepted by god though
Moriah: Please show me with scripture.
Moriah: Why did Jews make a sin offering if they were not sorry?
Moriah: You did not answer this last question.
To DaChaswer1, The way you put your answers in quotes made it so I could not quote you. That is why I replied in this format.
Are you saying that the past tense "saved" does not refer to the initial regeneration/conversion/justification aspect of salvation? If not, then how do you distinguish the past tense "saved" from the present tense "save" and future tense "shall be saved" from one another in regard to the various aspects of salvation?
We are equally "justified by faith"! So again, what aspect of salvation in general does the past tense "saved" refer to in your mind?
Which is it? First you say the jews that did not believe in Jesus were cut off, then, you say the cutting off proves they were saved?
If they did not believe in Jesus then they could not have been saved according to Christ's own words in John 14:6 and Peter's words in Acts 4:12. Jesus said John 14:6 before he went to the cross and Peter said Acts 4:12 after the cross and both deny there is any salvation without coming through Christ! So how could they be saved without believing in Jesus in the first place (Acts 10:43)??
Are you saying that Peter lied when he said ALL the prophets preached faith in Christ for remission of sins prior to the cross then (Acts 10:43)????
Are you saying the writer of hebrews lied when he said the same gospel was preached to those under Moses as well as unto us but some did not believe in the gospel preached to them? (Heb. 4:2; Acts 26:22-23)
How do you harmonize your idea they were saved without faith in Christ with the many scriptures that teach the same gospel was preaced prior to the coming of Christ as was preached after the coming of Christ?
They did not follow the law to be saved or to be justified as the Law cannot convey eternal life (Gal. 3:21) neither can it justify anyone. They were called the people of God because God elected/chose that NATION from among all other nations to reveal Himself to and give the Law. Romans 9 denies that just being a Jew makes one a child of God.
That is because I never said that in the first place. What I said, was that Israel professed God and professed to be God's chosen nation among other nations but that does not mean every single Jew was actually a child of God by faith in Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2). Being a child of God before and after the coming of Christ was by faith in Christ, before the cross by faith looking forward to His coming while after the cross faith looking back at the cross. There has never been more than one Savior, one way of salvation and one true gospel (Mt. 7:13-14; Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2; etc.).
The law was never designed by God to justify, save or literally remit sins for anyone (Gal. 3:19-21; Rom. 3:19-20; Gal 3:10-12
but was designed to reveal the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:21) and act as a school master to lead them away from trying to be saved or justified by the law but lead them to put their faith in Christ in order to be saved and justified.
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Christos doulos
New Member
My friend. Most parables if not all separate believers from false believers. False believers cannot fall back since they never stepped forward in the first place.
The Jews were God’s people. The Jews had the works of the law. What do you not understand about God cutting off some of the branches (Jews) because of unbelief?
Support your assertions by scripture instead of just mouthing personal opinion. I have presented scriptures that completely repudiate your personal opinions and you have yet to respond!
1. The Jews were the people of God as a chosen nation but that does not mean that everyone was a child of God by faith in Christ and Hebrews 4:2 proves my point that all were not true believers.
2. The Jews were neither "saved" or "justified" by observing the Law of Moses and Hebrews 4:2 with Acts 10:43 prove salvation was by faith in Christ prior to the coming of Christ and Romans 3:19-20 and Gal. 3:10-12 and Acts 13:39 along with Hebrews 10:1-4 prove I am right and your intepretations are simply wrong.
There has only been ONE WAY to heaven according to Matthew 7:13-14 and John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 and there has only been ONE SAVIOR for all men before and after Calvary according to John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 and there has only been ONE GOSPEL for all men before and after Calvary according to Acts 10:43; 26:22; Heb. 4:2; Gal. 1:8-9; Gal. 3:6-8; and there has only been one way to be JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD before calvary and after calvary and it is by "faith" in Christ and not by the law according to Romans 3:19-20; 24-28; 4:11; Acts 13:39.
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