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To Sin or Not
- Thread starter mandym
- Start date
Natural men are capable of doing good works. Just look at Catholics they actually believe they can earn there Salvation by doing so. Yet they are still sinfull.
Any time someone lay's down there life for there friends they are being Christ like. If only for that small moment in time.
Once while traveling in Arkansas I had a flat and my spare was flat. I didn't know what I was going to do. When a bootlegger came along and asked me what the problem was. He asked me to give him my spare and he'd have it fixed and bring it back to me. I didn't have a choice it was near midnight and I had been sitting there since sun down. He took my spare into town and got it fixed and brought it back to me.While he was gone 5 other cars pulled up and asked me the same thing and I told them what I had done and they waited there with us until the boot legger came back. He not only got my spare fixed but he also put it on the car for me and would not take a dime for his services. I thanked Him and he went around and sold a bottle of white lightening to all those who were waiting for him to come back.
I don't know maybe he was a Christian bootlegger but if he was you'd never know it. Was his deed a good thing or was it sinfull. I certainly wouldn't condemn him for his help. The lost help others all the time and some times more than so Called Christians do. Now there could have been several who passed by that were Christians and didn't offer to help me but would that really be a surprize any of us.
The good samaritan in the Bible what makes any one think he was a Christian?
MB
Of course they do things that aren't sinful. Individuals acts of sin is not what makes them lost. Just like individual acts of righteous is not what makes a Christian saved.
Lost people can perform wonderful acts and Christians can committ heinous acts.
Question would be IF any of us ever do acts/ good works that from Gods point of view are 'good", done without selffsh motivations!
Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin. (NASB, emphasis mine)
The unbeliever has not had the gift of faith given to him, so nothing he does can be of faith and therefore everything he does is sin, no matter how "good" it may be.
The unbeliever has not had the gift of faith given to him, so nothing he does can be of faith and therefore everything he does is sin, no matter how "good" it may be.
glfredrick
New Member
The lost can do things that are not "sinful" but that in no way fixes their primary problem of "sin" that being the sin that separates them from God before they ever DO one of the sinful sins.
Brother, with all due respect, the whole of Romans 14 is about dealing with believers. Non-believers aren’t even mentioned.
The faith he is mentioning isn’t a saving faith – it’s a sanctifying faith that grows daily (or should) with the believer. It's a faith stemmed from Godly convictions that drive us to understand what is right or wrong for our lives. That's evidence by Paul saying that for those who "doubt" - certain behaviors can be a sin. Only a Christian can have fluttering thoughts about "am I pleasing God with this behavior or am I offending Him?" A non-believer can't have those doubts because he has never placed his trust in God to start with.
What you have quoted is Paul’s summarizing the whole of chapter 14 - which about relationships with other believers - into a very pointed and personal place for the individual Christian to reflect on his or her OWN choices and to determine if the things we do on earth are from a place of obedience to God or to the flesh.
For you to say that this verse is saying that every action that non-believer is a sin is a misinterpretation of the verse – because it isn’t about non-believers. Would you say that a non-believer who is a fireman and risks his life to run into a burning building to save a child is sinning by doing this? Of course he isn't sinning. Saving that child doesn't save the man from hell, but his action is not a sin although his nature is sinful and he was born that way - like being born right-handed.
You’ve cited the conclusion of a passage that is about not treating Christians who are weak in the faith in an improper and unloving manner. Some Christians are entrenched in spiritual weakness for a variety of reasons. They could be under poor spiritual leadership, engrossed in legalism, neglecting their own personal spiritual walk and becoming spiritual lazy, or they could have been taught the wrong things.
Weak Christians don’t know that they are weak – in fact, they think they are stronger than everybody else and it’s easy for stronger believers to sit in judgment of their weaker brothers and sisters in Christ, but Paul said not to. Why? He gave several reasons in chapter 14.
- “To his (weaker-minded Christian) own master (God) he stands or falls.”
- “Let each be fully convinced in his own (Christian) mind.”
- “He (Christian) who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.”
- “For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we (Christian) live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.”
- “But why do you judge your brother (fellow believer)? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all (Christians to have their works tested by fire) stand before the judgment seat of Christ …….So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.”
- “Yet if your brother (fellow believer) is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.”
- “Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.”
I am afraid you missed my point. I understand what Romans is saying and who its audience is. That does not negate the fact that anything that is not of faith is sin. A totally depraved person, and unsaved and unable to save himself person, has no faith and is a slave to sin. They cannot not sin. That is the bottom line.
This is a nonsensical view that only those convinced of Total Depravity can be fooled by.
In your view, when an unsaved person tells the truth they are sinning. You could ask this person what time it is, and this person may not be thinking of God or earning salvation, but simply responding and telling you what time it is, and they are sinning. Absurd.
If your view is correct (which it isn't), then all of God's commands are meaningless. It is meaningless to say, "Thou shalt not bear false witness" if telling the truth is sin.
If your view was correct, a person should sin all they want, it makes no difference. It is no worse to lie than to tell the truth. It is no worse to steal than be honest.
How folks can be fooled by such nonsense is beyond me, but apparently many can be and are. If you cannot see how nonsensical this is, you cannot be helped. You have been duped BIG TIME.
convicted1
Guest
So when a "fullblown" sinner runs into a burning building and saves a baby, that's a sin too I guess? Granted, this "good deed" will not make them saved, it's still a good deed.
Calvininism seems to think that the only way God can look good is for man to look horribly evil, even though the scriptures continue to say man is made in the image of God after the fall.
Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Calvinism is actually doing what this verse is condemning, it is speaking evil of men who are made after the similitude of God.
That this "extreme" view is false is easily shown by Jesus himself. When Jesus wanted to teach the people how good our heavenly Father is, he compared God to men.
Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Here Jesus points out that if a son is hungry and asks for bread from his father, what father would give his son a stone? Or if the son asks for a fish, will his father give him a serpent? Or if he asks for an egg, will his father give him a scorpion?
So Jesus is showing that even sinners are able to do good, and if we can do good, how much more is our heavenly Father good? Jesus is comparing God to men here to demonstrate how good God is.
If everything an unsaved person does is evil, it would be ridiculous to compare God to man in this fashion.
It is true that the scriptures clearly teach that all men are sinners and come short of the glory of God, but the scriptures DO NOT teach the extreme view that everything that a sinner does is evil.
Total Inability is false.
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glfredrick
New Member
Winman, you mistake the purpose for total inability. It DOES NOT SPEAK to the ability to do good works. It speaks to the ability for those good works to earn us a spot with God. The entire application of the doctrine is such that it is immersed in soteriology -- can we be saved by our works -- and the answer is that we have TOTAL INABILITY.
Because you have too broadly defined the term, you make serious error in its application and argue something that is not true.
Now, the question that matters...
Would you say that you truly have total inability to do anything that would cause you to gain salvation or would you say that you have the ability to gain salvation by your efforts?
It's easy to confuse "status" before God with good "deeds" done in the flesh.
The sinner is always in a status of alienation with God.
NKJV Colossians 1
The sinner is always in a status of alienation with God.
NKJV Colossians 1
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight --
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight --
Yes, sinners do good things and even sometimes do selfless acts but they are still alienated from God in that they are in the continual state of rebellion against Christ by rejecting the gospel.
NKJV Matthew 5
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Our righteousness is born out of our faith in Jesus Christ without which it is impossible to please God.
HankD
I agree that the unsaved are alienated from God, but that is not the issue. The issue is Total Inability. The scriptures do not teach that man is unable to do good works. And the scriptures do not show the unregenerate do not have the ability to believe the gospel. THAT is the issue.
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
This is not man speaking as some try to distort. This is God himself speaking and he says men have done righteousness. However, if a man turns from righteousness and commits iniquity (which we all have done), then he shall die in his sins.
The Bible does not say unregenrate man cannot do righteousness, it says that all his righteousnesses (plural) are as filthy rags. To understand this we see that righteousness is often shown as a robe or covering, such as the skins God made to cover Adam and Eve when they sinned in the garden, or the new robe the father placed on the prodigal son when he returned home.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
This is a picture of righteousness being imputed to believers. We are clothed with the righteousness of Christ. But the scriptures also show a man has his own robe, his own righteousness, however this robe has been soiled, torn, and polluted by his sin, just as the prodigal son left home in good clean clothes, but went out in sin and polluted his raiment.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
This verse is not saying we do not have righteousness, it is saying our righteousness is marred and polluted by sin. Our robe has become filthy and ripped. But originally it was not so. Notice it says we "fade as a leaf". A leaf starts out green and beautiful, but in the fall it fades and becomes brown and brittle.
I know that none here agrees with me, but I believe the scriptures say we are made upright. We start out with a good clean robe, but like the prodigal go out and defile ourselves in sin. Our clean robe becomes filthy and torn.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
This verse is speaking of all men as shown by the plural word "they".
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The scriptures do not say we were originally filthy, they say God has made man upright, but men go aside and out of the way, they "become" filthy.
Words have meaning.
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Hi Winman.
I just said that man is able to do good works but not to be confused with spiritual status.
Where and when on the BB now or ever did I say that the unregenerate do not have the ability to believe the gospel?
Before you ask, I don't know with conviction whether they do or not and I will honestly admit to that.
There are passages which could be interpreted either way.
e.g. (that they can believe):
NKJ Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.
Would God command that which we cannot do?
That they can't:
John 8
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I do know that with God all things are possible.
If He wants to unlock the door of each man's mind in order to make a free will decision, He is able to do just that.
If He wants to limit it to the "elect" then that is His business.
In either case it is "after the counsel of His own will" of which we have not the details.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Usually I avoid such posts as these because they almost always end up as a demonstration of the works of the flesh and in particular - hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife (Galatians 5:19) - in whichwe each (myself included) talk the talk of our particular point of view but do not walk the walk of scripture (the fruit of the Spirit).
Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
HankD
glfredrick
New Member
Winman, IF you are discussing total inability, then man's alienation from God IS the issue.
That is what total inability means.
You have given it a strawman meaning and therefore you find yourself able to beat it about.
I notice that you failed to answer my rather simple question in the post above. Why?
convicted1
Guest
The rich young ruler communed with Jesus, and when Jesus told him what was necessary, he walked away sorrowful. The rich man in hell communed with Abraham, yet he was dead as a "door knob". Adam and Eve communed with God and they were spiritually dead. All of these were unregenerated, and yet they spoke with God(one spoke with Father Abraham).
Being alienated does not mean Total Inability. Cain did not give a suitable sacrifice to God, but God said he could and "if" he did so he would be accepted. So Cain COULD HAVE given an acceptable sacrifice, he was not unable. The fact that he chose not to obey God does not prove he was unable.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
The word "if" shown twice in this verse shows that Cain had the option to give or not give an acceptable sacrifice. This verse shows ABILITY.
Cain was alienated from God, but he did not have to remain so. He could have given an acceptable sacrifice and been reconciled to God.
And notice that God said Cain would rule over sin, not the other way around as Calvinism falsely teaches. Total Inability is false doctrine and is not supported by a single verse of scripture.
Show me even one verse that says unregenerate men are unable to believe. Just ONE verse.
You can't do it and you KNOW it. You believe a doctrine that is not shown even once in all of scripture. Unbelieveable!
Amen brother I completely agree
MB