Church of the Nazarene vs. Anglican

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Complete lack of understanding regeneration, born-again. Unless one understands this, one will never understand the bible's teaching of OSAS.

HP: How's that Steaver?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

See, you bring Calvin into this again, when I said nothing about Jesus being a Calvinist. You keep telling folks to stop putting words in your mouth, then you put words in people's mouths.



You could say OSAS is a steaver doctrine for that matter and call everyone who believes this doctrine a steaverist. You have bought into someone's misconception that this doctrine began somehow with Calvin.

I can give you my testimony of how I came to embrace OSAS. About fifteen years ago God called me to repentance from a life of living in the world and placed in me a desire to study His word. I learned of this controversy among believers, that some believed a Christian could lose their salvation and some believed in OSAS. So I set out into the scriptures to find for myself which position was correct. After about six months of study and prayer I settled in on OSAS. Now, I did this BEFORE I ever read anything from this Calvin fellow and without ever reading anything from Calvin I came to my conclusions.

So, I absolutely believe Jesus and His apostles taught eternal security in Christ. That is the conclusion I came to by reading what they wrote and without any help from this man called Calvin. It was only afterwards, when people started calling me a Calvinist that I decided to read some of what this TULIP was all about.

So, how do you account for the fact that from the first century on, up until Calvin, OSAS was virtually untaught and unknown?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Here again, should I call you a 4 point Arminian or however many points it is that you agree with him? Does this make any sense to you? The way I see this is that anyone who fails at any of the 5 TULIP points then they fail to be a Calvinist.

My views predate Arminius; they can be found in the early church. Not so for the 5 points of Calvinism.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Hyperbole, HP. I'm sure you understand. :thumbsup:

Do you want some real examples? madre comes from 5 generations of Wesleyans, Free Methodists and Nazarenes and, in spite of my IFB raising served 13 years with the UMC and one with the CotN. Here's a few examples that could potentially lead to a shipwreck of faith: tobacco in any form, alcohol in any form, reading magazines with scantily clad women on the cover, dancing, going to the motion picture theater, card playing, wearing any jewelry including a wedding ring, fancy dresses and short hair on the women folk..... I figure anyone having such a tenuous grip on their salvation should entrust it to someone strong enough to hold on to what He saves.

I know of holiness and pentecostal groups around here who act and believe as you describe. However, I thought the Nazarenes had gotten away from that and moved beyond it. Is that not true? If the Nazarene church is as you described, I could not go there. I have visited a Nazarene church only once, several years ago.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If I ever wanted to join a Nazarene church, instead of just attend for fellowship, I would have to affirm one of the two following statements, according to the Manual:

"...that subsequent to this [the new birth] there is the deeper work of heart cleansing or entire sanctification through the infilling of the Holy Spirit..."

or:

"...That believers are to be sanctified wholly, sub-sequent to regeneration, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..."

I would have trouble affirming this. For one thing, I believe in progressive sanctification and that the process is not completed -- that is, we are not completely free of sin -- until we reach heaven. So, to me, I would have to say that entire sanctification, or complete holiness, is not possible or accomplished in this life.

Now, defining sanctification and holiness the way that Dr. Thomas Oord defines it -- the core notion of holiness being love -- is something I can accept. But to me, that's not what I would be affirming in either of the two statements above. Furthermore, even when defining holiness as love, I don't think we can be entirely or wholly perfect in love in this life. I think the only one who was that or could be that was Jesus. Of course I believe we should seek to become as near like Jesus as we can, but we cannot become entirely perfect here -- neither in holiness nor in love.

Now I don't want to be like those whom the Quakers charged with "pleading for sin", but neither do I want or dare to suggest that I can be made perfect in holiness or love in this life.

So, this is just another example of how I don't seem to fit anywhere. Maybe that's one reason why I started my own fellowship. But I don't have a local congregation, and it gets lonely out here in the spiritual boondocks. I really would like to fellowship with a local body of believers, but that may not be possible. I can't go along with believing something when I don't believe it. I still have membership in the small rural Baptist church I grew up in, but recommitting there is not an option, for several reasons.

So, I must apologize for a comment I made to The Biblicist on another thread, in the heat of the moment, about him only being able to fellowship in communion with himself, as it looks like this might describe me. It seems that I am able to worship with anyone but to join no one. I've tried hard but am tired, so that's it, I guess -- unless the Lord plainly tells me what he wants me to do. He's not done it in all these many years, alas.

 

[steaver]

So, how do you account for the fact that from the first century on, up until Calvin, OSAS was virtually untaught and unknown?

I have never researched who taught what and when. I studied the bible and concluded Jesus and the apostles taught OSAS.

 

[padredurand]

PadreDurand, you might be able to find some in the Baptist camp that believe the earth is flat. (Relax all you Baptists. Just as an illustration of a point:thumbsup I personally would not characterize whole movements by the odd notions of some.

I am far more concerned with your views than anyone else's not on this list. Let me ask you. Does sin in the life of a believer have the potential of separating them from God? Do you hold to OSAS? Do you believe one can backslide, and turn their back on God via sin in their life? If so, would they be in need of 'doing their first works over' in order to restore a right relationship with God? If they fail to repent and turn again to God ,is there any hope of salvation for them?

Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again not born again and again and again and again.....

You called OSAS a notion in an earlier post as if the very idea was foolishness. When the question is raised about eternal security it matters little whether one claims to be C or A or DoG. What is at question is what you have decided about the character of God.

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39 NAS77

Neither the power or principalities, above or below can separate us from the great love of God but I can just throw up my hands and walk away from a personal relationship with Him through Jesus Christ? How can God guard my heat and mind against every agency in the universe except for my own stubborn will?

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:27-29 NAS77

Remember the TV show Kung Fu back in the seventies? In the opening the blind master says to young Kain, "As soon as you snatch the pebble from my hand you may go." Our omniscient Master says, "You can try to snatch the pebble from My hand but you will never be able to do so."

 

[steaver]

HP: How's that Steaver?

Unless one begins by understanding born-again one cannot understand OSAS. This is the first thing Jesus taught Nicodemus and Nic could not understand it at the time for Nic also thought salvation was of himself.

Paul made it clear that this is not the case in Ephesians 2:8-9. John made it clear that a child of God cannot go on sinning as well. The flesh sins constantly, even in thoughts, however the spirit that has been regenerated is sealed by God forever a child.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I have never researched who taught what and when. I studied the bible and concluded Jesus and the apostles taught OSAS.

Fair enough.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

That is not fair enough , it is a complete farce in reality. Steaver has not hammered out his beliefs of Calvinism on his own anvil. For whatever he claim he has not read or studied, those teaching him certanly have. Somewhere he has been greatly influenced with the errors of Calvinism. Steaver is no island to himself.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Padredurand, did you happen upon those beliefs antecedent to or subsequent to your tenure as a Nazarene pastor? Did you not have to take an oath and raise your right hand in agreement, promising to uphold the doctrines and covenants of the Nazarene Church to pastor one of their churches?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: The flesh sins constantly, even in thoughts

HP: That was certainly not the Apostle Pauls testimony as a believer. He said it is NO LONGER I that liveth, but Christ that liveth within me. Notice the 'I' or the flesh had died....unless you want to say that the 'I" was his spirit.

 

[DaChaser1]

They do, and I greatly respect J. I. Packer. He is a great scholar (not that my respect means that we agree theologically on every jot and tittle).

But, I prefer a congregation that is formed as close as possible to the Scriptures, and I find that in the baptistic groups -- and most particularly in the Baptists.

agreed!

think that some baptists though would be wise to read and study Knowing God, by Dr packer!

 

[DaChaser1]

I know of holiness and pentecostal groups around here who act and believe as you describe. However, I thought the Nazarenes had gotten away from that and moved beyond it. Is that not true? If the Nazarene church is as you described, I could not go there. I have visited a Nazarene church only once, several years ago.

Think the Nazarene church was offshooted from westyln holiness groups...

One stream went into pentacostalism, as they defined "second act of garce" as baptisism in the HG, while nazarenes saw holines living, while westyln saw second act of grace as sinless perfection...

 

[Doubting Thomas]

You nailed it Amy....100%. after reading your commentary, I found this encounter between Charles Simeon & John Wesley, led by Simeon:

Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?

JW: Yes, I do indeed.

And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?

JW: Yes, solely through Christ.

But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?

JW: No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.

Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?

JW: No.

What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother’s arms?

JW: Yes, altogether.

And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?

JW: Yes, I have no hope but in Him.

Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things where in we agree.

Of course, John Wesley still (corrrectly) believed that a regenerated person could indeed apostasize and finally be eternally lost again.

 

[glfredrick]

Of course, John Wesley still (corrrectly) believed that a regenerated person could indeed apostasize and finally be eternally lost again.

Interesting that you enclose "correctly" as you do. How many before the time of Wesley actually believe that once a person was a believer that they could then also fall away?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Interesting that you enclose "correctly" as you do. How many before the time of Wesley actually believe that once a person was a believer that they could then also fall away?

Umm, quite a few actually, since OSAS (or, if you prefer, inevitable perservarance or unconditional security) really didn't take hold until after the time of Calvin, and then only within a subsection of Christendom.

There's no real evidence of this doctrine (OSAS) being taught in the first several centuries of the Church's history. Even Augustine taught that not everyone regenerated would have the gift of perserverance.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Guess then Ole Tom is saying that the Holy Spirit would have to continuously repeat the whole salvation process everytime a person sins. What a bother!

In that system of Salvation/Falling from Grace, do you also categorize sins? The Catholics do this with Mortal (the Bad Bad Sins) & Venial (the not so bad sins).

That's gotta be both exhausting for the poor Holy Spirit, to say nothing for the confusion rendered for the Sinner. May I suggest you modify the whole process to Reformed Theology & consider the whole thing consolidated. :smilewinkgrin:

It works for me! :laugh:

 

[DaChaser1]

Guess then Ole Tom is saying that the Holy Spirit would have to continuously repeat the whole salvation process everytime a person sins. What a bother!

In that system of Salvation/Falling from Grace, do you also categorize sins? The Catholics do this with Mortal (the Bad Bad Sins) & Venial (the not so bad sins).

That's gotta be both exhausting for the poor Holy Spirit, to say nothing for the confusion rendered for the Sinner. May I suggest you modify the whole process to Reformed Theology & consider the whole thing consolidated. :smilewinkgrin:

It works for me! :laugh:

Guess the westylns and others had right theology in their song about OSAS, but failed to apply iy into theology proper!

"There is power/power wonder working power, in blood of the lamb"

 

[DaChaser1]

Umm, quite a few actually, since OSAS (or, if you prefer, inevitable perservarance or unconditional security) really didn't take hold until after the time of Calvin, and then only within a subsection of Christendom.

There's no real evidence of this doctrine (OSAS) being taught in the first several centuries of the Church's history. Even Augustine taught that not everyone regenerated would have the gift of perserverance.

jesus and ALL the Apostles held to OSAS, as they saw God as BOTH ONE saving and keeping us...

Are you smarter than them in this area?