When is a person saved?

[revmwc]

Because man is a sinner and a just punishment must be made.
No, the purpose of the atonement was to pay for sin. It has nothing to do with choice.
It is the correct answer. God is just and He requires a just punishment for sin.
Ok John, let's try to not say false things. I've very clearly answered your questions. (Oh and don't talk to me in the third person) You are being inconsistent and so I asked for you to ask yourself the same questions.
Very false. We dont' do that at all. I've been very kind with you and patient.
John, you need to cool down. You have a very bad attitude and shouldn't be posting like you are. I've attempted to have a civil discussion with you, but you have now resorted to saying I have a "self righteous" attitude and say that I treat you as you were a fool. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've answered your questions, but asked you to ask yourself the same questions. If you think about it, it appears that you are denying the sovereignty of God. I don't believe you are, but if you were to ask yourself the same question you asked me, you would see.

If you would like to continue, please refrain from the derogatory comments.

Here is a sample of what John is talking about:

My post and the response:


Originally Posted by revmwc
God has elected those He knows will choose positively for Him. He did not determine they would be saved, He foreknew the choice they would make and Predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

the response:
You have just SOLIDLY placed MAN upon the highest throne, for God cannot act of His own accord unless or until MAN decides. Placed in the terms I just used that equates to blasphemy and everyone knows it -- which is why the arguments are convoluted and encased in nuance instead of plainly made

When we post contrary to the beliefs John is refering we get accused of Blasphemy. Giving man Volition the right to choose was God's choice, Predestinating man based on the choice He would make was God's Choice. So how did I "SOLIDLY placed MAN upon the highest throne for God cannot act of His own accord unless or until MAN decides." If God chooses to elect those He knows will positively choose for Him how does that make man upon the highest throne.

Christ atoning Sacrficed has paid for the unbelievers sin, yet that unbeliever refuses to act in accepting what Christ (God) has done for Him. God is willing to save that person, their sins are atoned for but they choose not to receive the payment. That means that person has chosen to die the second death, God did not choose it for Him. Have his sins been atoned for yes, so why would he be condemned to the Lake of Fire? Revelation 20: 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How does one get their name written in the book of life by receiving Christ. They have chosen to reject Him and their name isn;t found in the book of life, even though Christ has atoned for their sins, just as He did for the believers.
God chose to make the way of salvation for everyone and God has given Direct Revelation as to what salvation takes, it is up to the individual to make that choice. God being omnicient knew the choice we would make and elected those of us who would make the positive choice. So why does one go to the Lake of Fire? Making the choice to reject.

The difference we accepted Christ finished work and that includes His payment for our sins.

 

[jbh28]

John, please answer these. This is what I'm talking about when I say you need to ask yourself your own questions.

If God is all powerful and can do anything, then why would you say that "God cannot just forgive sins with the atonement of Jesus Christ"?

Why John? First, do you believe that God is all powerful and can do anything? If so, why can't God just forgive sin without an atonement?

 

[seekingthetruth]

Ok, I of course disagree as that's not God choosing, but the purpose of the atonement doesn't change. It's still required by God because God is holy and just and requires a just punishment for sin.

God doesnt require anything. Yes, He is Holy and just, but He didnt need to sacrifice Jesus so that He could forgive us.....He sacrificed Jesus so that we would accept his forgiveness.

John

 

[jbh28]

God doesnt require anything. Yes, He is Holy and just, but He didnt need to sacrifice Jesus so that He could forgive us.....He sacrificed Jesus so that we would accept his forgiveness.

John

Sorry John, but God does require an atonement. This has nothing to do with Calvinism/Arminianism. What you just said isn't biblical at all. You have essentially made the atonement meaningless. It's not. It's payment for our sin, which was required. If no payment is made, God could not just forgive you. That's the Bible.

Romans 3:24-26 " Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

Galations 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

God could not just forgive sins per the Bible. He is holy and just and requires a just payment to be made.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Sorry John, but God does require an atonement. This has nothing to do with Calvinism/Arminianism. What you just said isn't biblical at all. You have essentially made the atonement meaningless. It's not. It's payment for our sin, which was required. If no payment is made, God could not just forgive you. That's the Bible.

Romans 3:24-26 " Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

Galations 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

God could not just forgive sins per the Bible. He is holy and just and requires a just payment to be made.

The whole point that I was making went way over your head.

John

 

[DaChaser1]

I have been reading the different theologies here on the BB, and it brings up a question.

When are people saved?

If a person is predestined as one of the elect to go to heaven before he is already born, then he must already be saved before birth. If God saves a person without the person having a choice, then is he ever really lost? After all, salvation means going to heaven, and if God decided to give you salvation before birth, then arent you already saved before you are born?

And if God has decided to save who He wants to before we are born, then why did we need the sacrifice of Jesus for Him to do that. I mean He is a sovereign God isnt He? God doesnt need a sacrifice to make His choices, so if God does indeed make all of our choices for us, then why did Jesus die?

I am not trying to be funny with this, I really want to know.

John

when they have placed faith in the work/person of jesus to be their messiah, and at that moment sealed by the HS, and granted new nature, and justifed before God!

 

[jbh28]

The whole point that I was making went way over your head.

John

Care to expound on that, or do you just want to keep it at the insult? Nothing went over my head. Maybe I misunderstood you. Please explain. My post very clearly was in response to what you said.

 

[DaChaser1]

God doesnt require anything. Yes, He is Holy and just, but He didnt need to sacrifice Jesus so that He could forgive us.....He sacrificed Jesus so that we would accept his forgiveness.

John

Jesus HAD to die on the Cross as sin bearer, as without the shedding of Blood, NO remission of sins!

 

[jonathan.borland]

If God set his love upon you and chose you to be saved before eternity began, then why are you required to believe?

that's why the most rational form of Calvinism eventually breaks down, in that since god is in control of everything and man nothing, then God is merely choosing himself through some individuals and rejecting himself through other individuals, and no one has any free choices because god has determined each choice beforehand. Not to mention god causes sin and we are automatons.

 

[jbh28]

that's why the most rational form of Calvinism eventually breaks down, in that since god is in control of everything and man nothing, then God is merely choosing himself through some individuals and rejecting himself through other individuals, and no one has any free choices because god has determined each choice beforehand. Not to mention god causes sin and we are automatons.

That's not Calvinism at all... It's not wonder some people hate the doctrine. If this were true, I would hate it too.

 

[percho]

When is a person a man saved?

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing not put under him.

What man was that written about?

Bear in mind, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (system).

The (A.) first man Adam was made a living soul; (B.)the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that (A.) which is natural; and afterward that (B.) which is spiritual.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn (from the dead) among many brethren.

Chosen and called for the above and hoped for and as sure as the rising of the sun yet not yet realized. Saved as in being realized.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

The best part: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Forest]

I have been reading the different theologies here on the BB, and it brings up a question.

When are people saved?

If a person is predestined as one of the elect to go to heaven before he is already born, then he must already be saved before birth. If God saves a person without the person having a choice, then is he ever really lost? After all, salvation means going to heaven, and if God decided to give you salvation before birth, then arent you already saved before you are born?

And if God has decided to save who He wants to before we are born, then why did we need the sacrifice of Jesus for Him to do that. I mean He is a sovereign God isnt He? God doesnt need a sacrifice to make His choices, so if God does indeed make all of our choices for us, then why did Jesus die?

I am not trying to be funny with this, I really want to know.

John

God foreknew before the foundation of the world that Adam would sin and bring that sin upon all mankind and knew that no natural man born into this world would seek him or make any choice to serve him, thats why God choose his elect people and gave them to Christ, that Christ would be a sacrifice for all those that his Father gave him (John 6:37-41) to reconcile them back to him. The eternal salvation of all of God's elect people was accomplished on the cross. We, God's elect, were eternally saved over 2000 years ago by the work of Christ on the cross.

 

[convicted1]

God foreknew before the foundation of the world that Adam would sin and bring that sin upon all mankind and knew that no natural man born into this world would seek him or make any choice to serve him, thats why God choose his elect people and gave them to Christ, that Christ would be a sacrifice for all those that his Father gave him (John 6:37-41) to reconcile them back to him. The eternal salvation of all of God's elect people was accomplished on the cross. We, God's elect, were eternally saved over 2000 years ago by the work of Christ on the cross.

Adam's sin was not placed upon all men by his sinning in the Garden. Death was passed along, but not his(Adam's) sin. Adam ushered death into the world through his rebellion.

 

[convicted1]

God foreknew before the foundation of the world that Adam would sin and bring that sin upon all mankind and knew that no natural man born into this world would seek him or make any choice to serve him, thats why God choose his elect people and gave them to Christ, that Christ would be a sacrifice for all those that his Father gave him (John 6:37-41) to reconcile them back to him. The eternal salvation of all of God's elect people was accomplished on the cross. We, God's elect, were eternally saved over 2000 years ago by the work of Christ on the cross.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

You have it wrong Forest. Death was passed along by Adam's sin, and not Adam's sin.

 

[Forest]

Adam's sin was not placed upon all men by his sinning in the Garden. Death was passed along, but not his(Adam's) sin. Adam ushered death into the world through his rebellion.

Is that all that you see wrong, by your thinking, of my comments?

 

[convicted1]

Is that all that you see wrong, by your thinking, of my comments?

Its not my thinking. The scriptures state emphatically that death was passed upon all mankind because of Adam's sin. Adam's sin was not passed down to us, but the death sentence. Read Romans 5:12 again, and show me where his sin was passed down.

 

[Forest]

Its not my thinking. The scriptures state emphatically that death was passed upon all mankind because of Adam's sin. Adam's sin was not passed down to us, but the death sentence. Read Romans 5:12 again, and show me where his sin was passed down.

Rom 5:19, For as by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners,

 

[Iconoclast]

Adam's sin was not placed upon all men by his sinning in the Garden. Death was passed along, but not his(Adam's) sin. Adam ushered death into the world through his rebellion.

All sinned....it was a point action....at the moment Adam sinned ...we sinned
he died, we died. he kept walking around though after he was dead...willis

Dead man walking.......

5Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.

6But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.


Looks like spiritual death :wavey:

 

[convicted1]

Rom 5:19, For as by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners,

Adam was made from the ground, and then God breathed his soul into that "earthern vessel". When Adam sinned, he died spiritually(seperated from God, not a "flat linned" corpse), and the sentence of death was pronounced upon him, and all mankind. God told him that when he ate of the tree, that he would die. Adam ate, and he died. But, God did not lay him in a grave, did He? Spiritual death happened to him and Eve because of their sin. Later on, they died physically because of that sin.

We that come along now, have the sentence of death already placed upon us because of their evildoings. We died in Adam, which is our flesh, that is made in the likeness of Adam. We die spiritually when God imputes/accounts sin unto us.

IOW, we have the stain of sin in our flesh because we come from the post-fall cursed ground. Sin is in our flesh from birth. If sin is in our soul at conception, then sin comes from God. Our soul comes from God, and if it's already stained by sin from the very moment God gives us our soul, then God Authored that sin. Are you ready to concede this belief?

 

[convicted1]

All sinned....it was a point action....at the moment Adam sinned ...we sinned
he died, we died. he kept walking around though after he was dead...willis

Dead man walking.......

5Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.

6But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.


Looks like spiritual death :wavey:

I do not disagree with spiritul deathness, just at the point when I believe it occurs. "In Adam" is our physical body, and not body and soul. God gives us our soul, so if our soul is already seperated from Him the very moment He places it in our physical body, then God Authored that sin.