Anabaptists and the Atonement

[Michael Wrenn]

Here is an excellent and objective article on the early Anabaptists and the doctrines of the atonement:

http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1170

 

[Crabtownboy]

Thanks for the heads-up on the article. I scanned it quickly, but will read it slowly later.

Also, it looks like a very good magazine. The theme of the current issue, Does God Behave Badly? Answers and Questions is a fascinating subject. There are several articles that I will read.

I will certainly read articles from their fall issue that speaks to the topic of Faith and Popular Culture.

Thanks again.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is an excellent and objective article on the early Anabaptists and the doctrines of the atonement:

http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1170

Yes, it is an excellent article but it does not support your theory that the Anabaptists embraced the Christus Victor model of the atonement. They did not! They believed in the penal substitutionary model in addition to believing that the atonement transformed the believer through new birth while yet denying he could live above sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

For the most part in debate I despise links, i.e., most of the time, but not the one Michael pointed us to. It covers much insight into the manner men and women have viewed and addressed salvation, the atonement, and Christian living over time. I believe it is clear that the Anabaptists, whoever and whatever they were, clearly saw through any literal payment/ forensic view of the atonement an rejected it as foreign to the truth of God's transforming power of the Holy Spirit without which only a still birth incurs.



Thanks Michael for the heads up on this article. We indeed can do all things through Christ with strengthens us. Those that find that they have to sin, or do in fact sin on a regular reoccurring consistent or constant basis, day after day, week after week, year after year, have more than somewhat to learn of the strengthening power of the Holy Spirit promised to believers in this present world.

 

[The Biblicist]

For the most part in debate I despise links, i.e., most of the time, but not the one Michael pointed us to. It covers much insight into the manner men and women have viewed and addressed salvation, the atonement, and Christian living over time. I believe it is clear that the Anabaptists, whoever and whatever they were, clearly saw through any literal payment/ forensic view of the atonement an rejected it as foreign to the truth of God's transforming power of the Holy Spirit without which only a still birth incurs.



Thanks Michael for the heads up on this article. We indeed can do all things through Christ with strengthens us. Those that find that they have to sin, or do in fact sin on a regular reoccurring consistent or constant basis, day after day, week after week, year after year, have more than somewhat to learn of the strengthening power of the Holy Spirit promised to believers in this present world.

You clearly did not read the article carefully. The author clearly stated they held to the penal substitutionary system but went farther than the reformers. They believed the atonement went further than merely penal and substitutionary.

If you doubt this I would be glad to quote the clear and explicit statements from the article to prove they did hold to the penal substitutionary atonement position.

The Anselmian “satisfaction” or substitutionary model of the atonement, emphatically articulated by the Magisterial Reformers, was not wrong in the Anabaptist’s view for they agreed with most of it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

This then is the critical distinction between the Anabaptists and the {132} Magisterial Reformers. For Anabaptists, atonement is not God’s act of forensic justification in which the sinner is declared righteous without actually being made so. It is the transformation of the believer’s life, an ontological change brought about by the work of Christ and the faith of the believer.

HP: I can get along real well with those stated sentiments. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

and this one as well!

But given that ability, insisted the Anabaptists, it is up to the individual to respond by accepting the grace of God which is demonstrated by following Christ in their lives and committing themselves to the community of believers. If they do not do this, it is a sign that they have not appropriated the work of Christ in their lives, and therefore the new birth has resulted in a still-birth. Although God has done everything and enough, atonement is not efficacious for that person; the goal of incorporating the individual into the life of the Spirit of God has been aborted.

I would sadly believe the Church world today is filled with still births and aborted relationships.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

As Thomas Finger puts it,

• Jesus’ active righteousness, and especially his sufferings, also continue in his members, sanctifying them and delivering them from present sin as they walk in the way in which he walked.54

HP: When one is delivered from present sin, walking in a way Christ walked, that is nothing less than a state of heart purity and obedience. Call such a walk whatever you so desire, but that is the walk I aspire to and many testified they have consisitently found it true and attainable in their own lives. To God be the glory!:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

To any that would feel that longing for such a consistent walk, there is a book I would highly recomend for such a seeker of holiness in this present evil world. "Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians" by James Gilchrist Lawson is a must read.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yes, it is an excellent article but it does not support your theory that the Anabaptists embraced the Christus Victor model of the atonement. They did not! They believed in the penal substitutionary model in addition to believing that the atonement transformed the believer through new birth while yet denying he could live above sin.

They did believe in Christus Victor which the article clearly states and you would have seen had you read it carefully and all the way through. But you can't stop after reading the beginning of it or you will not get the full import of what they believed.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

For the most part in debate I despise links, i.e., most of the time, but not the one Michael pointed us to. It covers much insight into the manner men and women have viewed and addressed salvation, the atonement, and Christian living over time. I believe it is clear that the Anabaptists, whoever and whatever they were, clearly saw through any literal payment/ forensic view of the atonement an rejected it as foreign to the truth of God's transforming power of the Holy Spirit without which only a still birth incurs.



Thanks Michael for the heads up on this article. We indeed can do all things through Christ with strengthens us. Those that find that they have to sin, or do in fact sin on a regular reoccurring consistent or constant basis, day after day, week after week, year after year, have more than somewhat to learn of the strengthening power of the Holy Spirit promised to believers in this present world.

That is exactly right and what the articles so clearly shows!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

But given that ability, insisted the Anabaptists, it is up to the individual to respond by accepting the grace of God which is demonstrated by following Christ in their lives and committing themselves to the community of believers. If they do not do this, it is a sign that they have not appropriated the work of Christ in their lives, and therefore the new birth has resulted in a still-birth. Although God has done everything and enough, atonement is not efficacious for that person; the goal of incorporating the individual into the life of the Spirit of God has been aborted.

HP: So much for the separation of 'positional and actual righteousness' as so many do holding to a literal payment or forensic notion of the atonement. It would appear clear to this reader that the author recognized that if the life of obedience was not evident, either one of two possibilities existed. First, they were either still-born or born dead to God and His commandments, (much like those that claim to have faith apart from works, in reality merely dead faith) which is reality a misnomer, or they have been born alive unto Christ but have turned back by aborting the faith they once had as testified to by their continued sinful choices. That brings to mind the Scriptures for all of us to consider: "Examine yourselves to see IF ye be of the faith." "Faith without works is dead being alone."

No positional/actual separation in the Anabaptists notions of the atonement that I have read so far. Doesn't sound to 'penal' does it?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The Anabaptist views certainly appear to shoot holes in any notions we see so often suggesting man has nothing to do with ones salvation, or that salvation is accomplished by God alone. They saw clearly, from what I can read, the distinction between grounds of salvation and means of salvation, without which no one is saved. They saw clearly that man is a worker together with God in salvation, yet by no means did they see it as being salvation accomplished by the works of man.

Praise the Lord! I am beginning to have a clear appreciation for those early Anabaptists from what I am reading. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Oh Lord, send us some of that Old-Time Anabaptist religion!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sometimes one can ferret out the truth just by who is calling who a heretic. Hmmmmmm.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Now I can understand better the Christian charity expressed by my father for some of the Anabaptist he knew that were conscientious objectors. He said he would go to war and give his life so that they could retain the freedoms to be the conscientious objectors they are without fear of death or reprisal for their views. Now that is a far cry from yelling 'heretic' at anyone that disagrees with ones position.:thumbs:

Thanks Dad for your great example of Christian charity!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

HP: So much for the separation of 'positional and actual righteousness' as so many do holding to a literal payment or forensic notion of the atonement. It would appear clear to this reader that the author recognized that if the life of obedience was not evident, either one of two possibilities existed. First, they were either still-born or born dead to God and His commandments, (much like those that claim to have faith apart from works, in reality merely dead faith) which is reality a misnomer, or they have been born alive unto Christ but have turned back by aborting the faith they once had as testified to by their continued sinful choices. That brings to mind the Scriptures for all of us to consider: "Examine yourselves to see IF ye be of the faith." "Faith without works is dead being alone."

No positional/actual separation in the Anabaptists notions of the atonement that I have read so far. Doesn't sound to 'penal' does it?

No, and it wasn't.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The Anabaptist views certainly appear to shoot holes in any notions we see so often suggesting man has nothing to do with ones salvation, or that salvation is accomplished by God alone. They saw clearly, from what I can read, the distinction between grounds of salvation and means of salvation, without which no one is saved. They saw clearly that man is a worker together with God in salvation, yet by no means did they see it as being salvation accomplished by the works of man.

Praise the Lord! I am beginning to have a clear appreciation for those early Anabaptists from what I am reading. :thumbs:

At heart, I am an Anabaptist, or a General Baptist. I am not a complete pacifist, as I believe in defending one's own life and family. And I think there are times when war is justified. But thinking back about all the wars that this country was involved in during the 20th century and until today, probably the only one that was justified was WWII. But that's a topic for another discussion, I suppose.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

This dose of Anabaptists has certainly thrilled my own heart. Maybe you need to give us a dose or two of General Baptists.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Michael: But thinking back about all the wars that this country was involved in...

HP: How about we just treating each other as fellow believers in Christ in spite of any possible disagreements over wars etc.? :thumbs: