Featured Is there any historical evidence for the Baptist position on Baptism?

Two points: (1) There is absolutely no evidence in the NT for infant baptism. (2) As much as I strongly disagree with Biblicist, and as often as we have come to verbal blows, he has posted a very effective rebuttal of RCC sacramentalism on this forum -- it's a great read!

I believe God works through the physical, but he doesn't do so at the behest of man, or because someone conducts a ritual and says a magic formula over a person. The Spirit blows where it wills, not where man wills that it should blow!

The Quakers have a saying that applies to correct doctrine: The stream is purest at its source (in this case, the Bible), and the further you get from the source, the more polluted the stream becomes. The major polluters of the stream were the RCC, Augustine, and his Protestant spiritual descendants.

 

Being a baptist, I do know baptists who believe that the water baptism is a completion of the salvation process. IOW, if you aren't baptized, you won't make it. I know of no association/conference that holds to this, but merely individuals. I am of the belief that the water baptism is one's testimony of them being saved. It does not, however, add one cubit to one's salvation.

 

I agree with your position on this, however, I am Roman Catholic. The comon refrain is that in some way sacamentalism is wrong because "God does not work on the behest of Man". Though from scripture it is clear God uses the Physical as an expression of a spiritual reality. Baptism nor any sacrament isn't a function of at the behest of man but obedient following of God's commands. God put in place the requirement for us to follow as the scripture verses you quoted points out. In truth all sacraments are obedience to follow the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ. They are in short a participation in the divine life of our Lord and Redeemer. Jesus was baptised that all righteousness be fulfilled. Paul calls it our circumcision into the New Covenant Col. 2:11-13 not done with human hands. Therefore baptism isn't at the behest of man but a requirement at the behest of Jesus Christ.

 

Sometimes, the Lord wants to use earthy realities to contain and transmit his life-changing power. He spit on the ground and made mud to put in the blind man's eyes.You can’t get more earthy than mud! Did He need to do that to heal the man? Obviously not. But if God can use mud to heal and give new life, why not water? Why not bread and wine? Why not oil?

The Divine Word even becoming flesh in the womb of the Blessed Mother.

I know Baptists and some other Protestants have little use for the typology of the Old Testament but even the oil used in the sacrament of Holy Unction, is prefigured and prepared for in the Old Testament. Special oil called chrism is carried by the prophet Samuel to the town of Bethlehem to be used in the anointing of a new king. The Philistines, a mighty people from the seacoast with superior weapons and military skill, oppress the people of Israel. The role of the King is to defend his people from their enemies, and this is a formidable foe. The King will need great strength to fulfill his mission, so he is to be anointed with sacred chrism, a holy, perfumed oil first used to consecrate priests.

 

Again, will one of the non Baptist posters answer my question. How did the RCC or other faiths of like order come up with seven sacraments instead of two? What is the Scriptural basis of this?

By the way, the proper term is ordinances.

 

Every Sacrament has its basis in Scripture. Here is some information I quote from EWTN

So here is a list of sacraments and the applicable scriptures
Baptism: Matthew 3:16; Matthew 28:19; Mark 1:8; Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 1:4-5; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:16; Acts 8:36-38; Acts 11:16; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; Acts 19:3-6; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 5:25-26; Col. 2:12; 1 Peter 3:20-21
Confirmation: which

Eucharist: Matthew 26:26-29; Luke 24:35; Acts 2:42; 1 Cor. 11:24-27. Also I like to point out John 6
Penance: which

Anointing of the Sick: James 5:14-15.
Holy Orders: which

Acts 6:3-6; Acts 13:2-3; 1 Tim. 3:1; 1 Tim. 3:8-9; 1 Tim. 4:14; 1 Tim. 4:16; 1 Tim. 5:17-19; 1 Tim. 5:22.
Matrimony: Genesis 2:24; Mt. 19:10-11; Eph. 5:31-32.

 

No need to go to Church fathers/creeds/Confessions, as NONE of them are inspired by the Lord, and every reference in the NT was to a believer in jesus getting water baptised after that!

NO verses support God having grace in the water to regenerate/save us!

 

Sacrament: A visible sign of invisible grace. Are they scriptural? Well let’s see.

1. Baptism. “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’” John 3:5. See also 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5; Acts 2:38. The visible sign is water.

2. Confirmation. “Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:17. The visible sign is laying on of hands.

3. Holy Eucharist. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:54. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16. The visible signs are bread and wine.

4. Reconciliation. “And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.’” John 20:22-23. See also 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 9:8. The visible sign is the statement of absolution by the confessor.

5. Holy Matrimony. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” Mark 10:7-9. The visible sign is the exchange of the marriage vows.

6. Holy Orders (ordination). “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.” 1 Timothy 4:14. See also 2 Timothy 1:6; Acts 6:6. The visible sign is the laying on of hands.

7. Anointing of the Sick. “Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.” James 5:14-15. The visible signs are praying and anointing.

The sacraments don't confer grace. The Holy Spirit confers grace through the sacraments, somewhat analogous to the way a hose carries water, and faith is the sine qua non of them all.

 

That sounds good (the bolded part) ...now prove it with Scripture.

 

problem is that they are NO scriptures that tell us we need ANY additional grace than what God bestows to us when justified, as we then walk by faith in the Holy Sprit and NO other sacraments needed!

 

No, its that we interprete those verses in their contex and light of the scriptures!

peter appeals NOT to the water to save us, but that which it sybolises to us, that being Christ as the Ark of safety!

he that believes NOT will be damned, not if he is not also water baptized!

Alsp peter referencing to jews, they would have caught that he was asking them to be baptized into jesus, as he was the remitter of/for their sins!

 

All right. Let's look at a couple of them. First, holy orders. ). “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.” 1 Timothy 4:14. This is the rite of ordination. Timothy had received a spiritual gift that was not held by lay persons. He got it "through prophetic utterane with the laying on of hands." Note that the elders (presbytery) did not just gather around and pray over him. They laid on hands and that is the saramental part of this rite. A spiritual gift that is transmitted through a physical medium.

Second, annointing of the sick. “Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.” James 5:14-15. Here we see grace being imparted through anointing "in the name of the Lord." The grace for healing and forgiveness of sins comes through prayer and annointing. Note that both are required. Not just prayer; not just anointing.

Finally, I must say that you don't really need scriptural authority for this, allthough I have given it to you. It's part of the Tradition of the Church and that carries equal authority with scripture and they never contradict each other.

 

Roman Catholic Church Tradition does NOT carry equal authority with Scripture. Scripture always overrides and overrules the Roman Catholic Church Tradition.

 

NT practice was to water baptise those who had ALREADY placed faith in yeshua , and were saved!

What else can we add to that?

 

So the assumption of mary, the sacramentalism, the immaculate conception, saints interceding for us etc are ALL in the scriptures themselves?

 

Well I'm not yet a Catholic but, I am certainly closer to them than many of the baptists in our area (South Alabama). Therefore...

Baptism per the Early Church​

The Didache

After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

Justin Martyr

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).

Hippolytus

Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Recognitions of Clement

But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Origen

The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cornelius I

As [the heretic Novatian] seemed about to die, he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring. . . . (Letter to Fabius of Antioch 6:43 [A.D. 251]).

Cyprian

[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).

As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

In the saving sacraments, when necessity compels and when God bestows his pardon, divine benefits are bestowed fully upon believers, nor ought anyone be disturbed because the sick are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lord's grace" (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69(76):12 [A.D. 254]).

Ambrose

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.... "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (On Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

Well, there you go - and now let the love begin!

P.s. The reason you've gotten no historical proof from the Baptist side is because - THERE ISN'T ANY

WM