-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
heresy or opinion
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
they knew only that Jewish believers in yeshua would be placed by god in it, to paul was given the revelation that BOTH jews/Gentiles were to saved by same Yeshua!
makes sense that he received that, as he was Apsotle to the gentiles sent from God!
So more precise and correct answer was that OT prophets foresaw messaih and jewish belivers in coming Kingdom of His, not gentiles though!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That sounds like hyper dispensationalism!
Utter nonsense!
Hosea 2:23. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Romans 9:25, 26
25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
The Prophet Hosea and the Apostle Paul disagree with you!
*****************************************************************
Amos 9:11. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
Acts 15:3-18
13. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
As do also the Prophet Amos and James the brother of our Lord Jesus Christ.
*****************************************************************
As I recall Philip preached the Gospel to the Samaritans, though some may argue they were not Gentiles but:
Acts 8:5. Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
And then he preached the Gospel to the Ethiopian :
Acts 8:26-37
26. And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28. Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31. And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33. In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35. Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37. And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Of course some might argue that the Ethiopian was really a displaced Israelite but: Old Peter the Apostle came through and after a little persuasion from God he preached the Gospel to the Gentiles.
To be continued in the next post.
******************************************************************
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That sounds like hyper dispensationalism!
Utter nonsense!
Old Peter the Apostle came through and after a little persuasion from God he preached the Gospel to the Gentiles. The following is a rather long passage of Scripture but since you seem to be hung up on Paul and the Gentiles I thought perhaps this chapter was missing from your Bible. I hope you will find it helpful.
Acts 10:1-48
1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6. He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7. And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8. And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9. On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10. And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11. And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12. Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17. Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate,
18. And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19. While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21. Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22. And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23. Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24. And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25. And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27. And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28. And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29. Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30. And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31. And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32. Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37. That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40. Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41. Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
That sounds like hyper dispensationalism!
Utter nonsense!
Old Peter the Apostle came through and after a little persuasion from God he preached the Gospel to the Gentiles. The following is a rather long passage of Scripture but since you seem to be hung up on Paul and the Gentiles I thought perhaps this chapter was missing from your Bible. I hope you will find it helpful.
Acts 10:1-48
1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6. He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7. And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8. And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9. On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10. And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11. And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12. Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17. Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate,
18. And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19. While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21. Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22. And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23. Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24. And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25. And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27. And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28. And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29. Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30. And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31. And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32. Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37. That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40. Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41. Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
paul was revealed the "Mystery' of their being One Body of believers under new Covenant, of BOTh jews/Gentiles! Yeshua was the messiah for all, not just for the jews!
the Lord know there was to come the Church Age, but he did not allow his prophets in the ot to set that, as they saw his first/second comings!
NOT a Hyper Dispy, as they see ONLY Apostle paul written for/to the Church! All the other Apostles were to the Jews!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Repeating the same mantra does not make it valid fal! I showed you two instances where Old Testament Scripture regarding Gentiles and the Church is seen as fulfilled by Paul and James.
That is false as I showed! Just because dispensationalists are wrong regarding Scripture does not make it invalid.
paul and james were able to "see" it prophesied in the OT, but does NOT mean when orginally written, they saw it!
As peter said that prophets of Old wrote and said things pertaining to coming messiah, yet did not have the 'fulness" of it all, as that had to wait until His actual coming!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So you are confessing that the classic dispensational mantra "the Church is not in prophecy" is false. Confession is good for the soul fal!:laugh::laugh:
That does not change the truth. It is most refreshing to see you, a dispensationalist, make this admission fal! You are to be commended!:thumbsup: Hope the other classic dispensationalists don't "shun" you!:tonofbricks:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
This started out as a thread on heresy or opinion but like many it got side tracked. It is worth a restart!
I agree with Amy.G regarding "another" Gospel. I believe that hyper dispensationalism is heretical. Their Gospel is the mythical Gospel of Paul! Actually according to Ryrie [Dispensationalism, page 197ff] there are two schools of hyper dispensationalism, the extreme and the moderate. There are a couple who post on this Forum on occasion!
the Church was NOT added into the plan of God due to isreal rejection of yeshua, bt he used that to usher in the Church age we now live under/in!
Always was in his plan, its just that the Apostle Paul received full revelation on the relationship now between isreal and the Church in the plan of God!
freeatlast
New Member
"heretical" Hmmm. You measn like the hyper Cals. like yourself that also post here? :laugh:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
:jesus::jesus::jesus::jesus:
Last edited by a moderator:
If he holds true to his name, he is far from Calvinist.... Do you understand the differences FAL?
freeatlast
New Member
Probably not since I don't really study so as to retain such things and since I have no respect for John Calvin because of what I have read about him being a murderer.
saturneptune
New Member
Although I agree with the principles Calvin expresses in relation to God's sovereignty, we could have found a better example to name the doctrine after. His hands might as well have lit the fire that murdered Michael Servetus. Calvin was a proponent of infant baptism. He wrote extensively about the seperation of church and state, yet, he took a position of authority, as head of state, of a small theocracy.
One does not have a person executed because they do not agree with the other about some point of theology. We agree on this point. I have no use for Calvin, or for that matter, Hitler.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Calvin embraced a number of practices with which I disagree. The word "calvinism" is a pejorative thrown about routinely on this Board. I reject that acronym for my belief in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace. And I will never apologize for believing what Scripture teaches!
Then don't. But don't condemn others for their beliefs. it is against the rules to hold opinions as fact to the condemnation of others. Your strongly held opinions does not give you the right to call others heretics or their position heresy. It does not give you reason to call their doctrine "of Satan," or any other similar terminology.
And the same goes for non-Cals as well. To us the position may not be the Biblical position, as with you. But that is our strongly held opinion or even conviction. I don't condemn a person to Hell for it, just because he holds a doctrine different than I, especially in these forums.
In another forum I am dealing with a "brother" who strongly holds to a position that faith plus works brings salvation. Now, what shall I say about that? I believe that is a different can of worms.
freeatlast
New Member
I agree with that attitude, but one has to embrace all that the bible teaches not simply one side of it less their doctrine is lopsided and faulty.
If one can see God's sovereign election then one should also be able to see man's free will as both are clearly in scripture. It is not necessary for them to be explained or understood as how they word while seeming to exclude one another to be true any more then how the Godhead can not be understood but also true.
God is no less God because Jesus is also God and the Son is no less God because the Father is God. The same with election and free will. One need not suffer because of the other when both are in the word of God.
Last edited by a moderator: